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 Re:

Stever said:

Quote:
Liberalism rules over there, and much of it started with Westcott and Hort and the Revision Committee that created the NIV in the late 1800's.



philologos wrote:
This is also nonsence. Westcott and Hort were the consequences of liberalism not the cause of it.


Stever's response:
So now you admit that these two English champions of yours are liberal???? You are also saying that the culture they lived in was responsible for their sin?

Interesting.

Stever

 2005/7/13 0:47
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Stever's response:
So now you admit that these two English champions of yours are liberal???? You are also saying that the culture they lived in was responsible for their sin?


You have not been listening. They are not champions of mine; I disagree with them. I favour the Byzantine textform, but not blindly. Your logical processes constantly surprise me.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/13 3:02Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Stever writes

Quote:
]This word “epi” (upon) is in the Greek Aortic Verb Tense denoting continuous action or filling UPON.
1. A form of a verb in some languages, such as Classical Greek, that expresses action without indicating its completion or continuation.
This word upon (epi) in the Greek Aortic tense means a continuous, non-ending “upon” of the Holy Spirit, that happens with this baptism.


Perhaps I missed something in my Greek studies, but please explain to me how a preposition can be regarded as a verb.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/13 4:56Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Barnes Dictionary
To put an element or liquid over or on it. Nothing therefore as to the mode of baptism can be concluded from the mere word used. The word has a wide latitude of meaning, not only in the New Testament, but also in the LXX. Version of the Old Testament, where it is used of the ablutions and baptisms required by the MOSAIC LAW. These were effected by immersion, and by affusion and SPRINKLING; and the same word, "WASHINGS" (Heb. 9:10, 13, 19, 21) or "BAPTISMS," designates them all.


Barnes, of course, was an Anglican. This is from Easten's Bible DictionaryBaptism, Christian
An ordinance immediately instituted by Christ (Mat_28:19, Mat_28:20), and designed to be observed in the church, like that of the Supper, “till he come.” The words “baptize” and “baptism” are simply Greek words transferred into English. It means to dip a thing into an element or liquid. In the LXX, the Greek version of the Old Testament, it is used of the ablutions and baptisms required by the Mosaic law. These were effected by immersion, and the same word, “washings” (Heb_9:10, Heb_9:13, Heb_9:19, Heb_9:21) or “baptisms,” designates them all. Moreover, all of the instances of baptism recorded in the Acts of the Apostles (Act_2:38-41; Act_8:26-39; Act_9:17, Act_9:18; Act_22:12-16; Act_10:44-48; Act_16:32-34) suggests the idea that it was by dipping the person baptized, i.e. by immersion.
I can only conclude that Barnes, and you, are confusing separate Greek words; baptO and baptizO and baptismos. baptO is used infrequently in the NT baptismos meaning washings and ought never to have been translated as 'baptisms' in the Hebrews 6:2 passage, as reference to its other usage will make very clear.Mark 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
Mark 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Heb. 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb. 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. This has to do mainly with ceremonial ablutions and clearly should not have been translated as 'baptisms' in Heb 6:2. This is corrected in the NJKV and the NASB.

baptO means to dip and is found inLuke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
John 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
Rev. 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. In each case in the KJV it is translated 'dipped'.

baptizO, on the other hands means to immerse. If the word had been translated rather than transliterated in our older versions it would have had to use the word 'immerse'. Now if you are telling me that the word 'immerse' does not necessarily mean 'immerse' it is little wonder that we are not communicating very well. The word 'baptO' is used only twice in the LXX as far as I am aware.

There is a old thread The Distinction between being 'filled' and 'baptized' in the Holy Ghost and an article on another site called "The Old Testament's hidden baptisms" that may interest you.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/13 6:07Profile









 Re:

To Philologos:

Thank you for the Greek lesson and the definition of Baptism from Barnes Dictionary and Easton's Dictionary.

My question to you, Philogos, is: Do you think that being immersed/dipped in water (baptised in water) is not only necessary, but essential in the process of being saved, in the process of the indwelling when the Holy Spirit enters the heart of the believer?

God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/15 22:53









 Re:

Can we sum up the past two pages please? Alot of it went over my head.

 2005/7/15 23:44
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Stever writes:

Quote:
My question to you, Philogos, is: Do you think that being immersed/dipped in water (baptised in water) is not only necessary, but essential in the process of being saved, in the process of the indwelling when the Holy Spirit enters the heart of the believer?


Straightforward question, straightforward answer. It is necessary but not essential. However...John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (Matt. 28:18-20)
'teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you' includes this command to... 'disciple all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost'. We have not effectively 'discipled' anyone until we have passed on this commission which included 'baptizing them...'.

Necessary, yes. Essential to salvation, no.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/16 5:19Profile









 Re:

To Philogos:

If baptism is essential, but not necessary, why did Paul thank God that he had only baptized 2 people and the household of Stephanus only-in total?

1 Cor 1:12-18
“12. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14. I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15. Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”

Also, if Water Baptism was so important, why then did Christ Baptize no man himself?

John 4:1-2
“1. When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2. (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)”

Was Christ talking about water baptism, or Spirit Baptism when he commanded:

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (Matt. 28:18-20)

Would appreciate your response.

God Bless,


Stever

 2005/7/16 20:10









 Re: crossed wires again

Stever,

If you do not understand this question, please post back to me. Can you see that you've reversed what philologos said? Here are his words followed by yours.

Quote:
Necessary, yes. Essential to salvation, no.

If baptism is essential, but not necessary

I'm guessing this was an accident, but if so, with a simple statement, has it happened before, that you read something written and flip it over unconsciously?

Incidentally, the answer to your first question is in the v15 which you quote. One might think Paul was copying Jesus, not giving cause for division (unnecessarily) by baptising followers Himself.

 2005/7/16 21:11









 Re:

Dear Dorcas:

Paul is the Apostle to the Gentile Church. I will post my question in another way. My concern is what does the term "baptism" really mean. If Christ gave the command to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and Paul thanks God that he hardly baptized in water anyone, then MAYBE Christ was referring to something other than WATER BAPTISM?

Also, the Word does not tell us that Paul specifically delegated others to perform water baptism to early Church beleivers in any of the Churches he established. If it was necessary, but not essential (as Philologos says) then why is it not even mentioned? Since it was commanded by Christ why didn't Paul address it (water baptism)?

Also, Philologos has posted that it is essential, but not necessary to be water baptized (those are his words, and no one elses). Christ gave the command that his disciples were to witness and baptize. In Mark he clearly states that only those that are baptized will be saved, THUS ELEVATING THE ESSENTIAL TO A NECESSITY, when he says:

" 15. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16. He that believeth AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

IS CHRIST REFERRING TO WATER BAPTISM, OR SPIRITUAL BAPTISM?????

I am not turning anything around. I have asked a question that you have not elected to answer either.

If water baptism is essential but not necessary, then why did Christ NEVER WATER BAPTIZE ANYONE? WHY DID CHRIST COMMAND HIS DISCIPLES TO BAPTIZE?

If Christ's baptism is one that involves the Holy Ghost and fire, then perhaps we should be involved with this baptism, and not water baptism? WE ARE HIS DISCIPLES, HIS CHURCH, THAT ARE COMMANDED TO WITNESS AND BAPTIZE---BUT WHAT BAPTISM IS CHRIST REFERRING TO? SURELY NOT THE BAPTISM OF JOHN THE BAPTIST, NOT THE SAME TYPE OF WASHING AND PURIFICATION THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE LAVER AND THE SEA OF GLASS, THAT THE PRIESTS PARTICIPATED IN?

Matt 3:11
11. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

I surely hope that you can understand what I am trying to say, and have been trying to say it for the last 30 days on this thread.

Also, if you elect to respond to this post, please address every point I have raised here, as that would be helpful in putting this thing to rest.


Thank You & God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/16 22:48





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