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letsgetbusy
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Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re: concerning baptism

Servus,

I don't really have anything to add to your original statement, because I think it is right on the money!

Christ first, all things second!


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2005/7/11 21:33Profile









 Re:

Philologos said:

"Burgon, of course, was an embarassment even to his friends with his outrageous statements."


Stever's response:

The typical response by someone who tars the messenger, to silence the truth of the message.In your zeal to defend Westcott & Hort, you have defamed a great man by labeling him (Dean Burgon) "an embarassment".Your characterization of Dean Burgeon as an embarassment is only true if you were in the shoes of Westcott & Hort, or someone trying to defend them:

QUESTION: Who was Dean Burgon?
ANSWER: He was an outstanding 19th century Bible scholar.
EXPLANATION: John William Burgon (1813-1888) was a man of tremendous intellect and ranks among men such a Lancelot Andrews (1555-1626) and Robert Dick Wilson (1856-1930) in scholarship. He became the Dean of Chichester and has since been known as "Dean" Burgon.
Dr. Burgon was contemporary with Westcott and Hort. He was an advocate of the Textus Receptus and was the nemesis of Westcott and Hort's feeble arguments against it. He believed, unlike Westcott and Hort, in basing all conclusions on the solid foundation of facts rather than the sand of theory. He would leave no stone unturned in his quest for truth and no blow undelivered in his defense of it.
His serious scholarship, quick wit and acid tongue drove Westcott and Hort and all other Alexandrian scholars from the field of battle. His arguments against the Alexandrian text and in favor of the last 12 verses of Mark and other questioned portions have proven to be as unanswerable by modem scholarship as they were to his contemporaries.
Today his name is as synonymous with the defense of the King James Bible as the names of Hills, Fuller and Ruckman. He is not only known as a champion of the Authorized Bible, but his works are an example of what honest, objective and thorough scholarship can produce.
John Burgon catalogued more than 86,000 citations of the New Testament in the writings of the early church fathers who lived before A.D.325. Thus we observe that there is so much more evidence for the reliability of the New Testament text than any other comparable writings in the ancient world." (Ref: M1)

Dean John Burgon Gave Specific Suggestions as to Both "How" and "When" He Would Make a Major Revision of the Textus Receptus
1. Dean Burgon Believed As an "INDISPENSABLE CONDITION" of Success in "Textual Criticism" That a Man "for Many Years Past" Has Given "the Whole of His Time" and Has "Freely Sacrificed Health, Ease, Relaxation, Even Necessary Rest" 27
2. Dean Burgon Insisted on the "Scientific Method Being Used, Not Westcott and Hort's "Unscientific Method," for-Textual Criticism Work Entailing Many "Long Summer Days" With Very Little "to Show" for All the Time Spent 28
3. Dean Burgon Held to a "Method" on a "Supposed Doubtful Reading" Which Involved the "Combined Verdict" of "Manuscripts, Versions," and "Fathers" as "Decisive 28
4. Dean Burgon Considered That a "Carefully Considered Revision" of the "Received Text" Would Only be Possible "After Many Years" After "Gradual Accessions" of Certain Knowledge" 29
5. Dean Burgon's Basis For Any Revision of the Textus Receptus Was a Careful Scrutiny of "Copies," "Versions," "Fathers," and "Lectionaries" 29
6. Dean Burgon Stressed "External Evidence" as the "Only Safe Guide" and Our "Best" Guide to Any Revision of the Textus Receptus, Saying That "Every Part of That "External Evidence" Must Be Examined Carefully 31
7. Dean Burgon Cautions Against Those Who Would "Reject" the "Commonly Received Text" Without Having the "Evidence" From "All" Sources Clearly Understood 31
8. Dean Burgon Favored the Holding to and to "Letting Alone" the Received Text Whenever "the Evidence" Is About "Evenly Balanced" Because That "Text" Rests On Infinitely Better Manuscript Evidence" Than "Any Ancient Work" 32
9. Dean Burgon Cautioned That the Would-Be Textual Critic Should "Begrudge No Amount of Labour" Even to Ascertain "the truth" About "One Single Controverted Word of Scripture" 32
10. Dean Burgon Analyzed the "Exactly Eight" of the "English Revision" Committee who Would Have Been Capable of Making a Major Revision of the "Textus Receptus" if Specific Requisites Were Insured 32
11. Dean Burgon Boldly Stated That Any "Authoritative Revision of the Greek Text" Must Precede Any "Future Revision of the English" Text of the New Testament, and "For Such an Undertaking" the "Time Has Not Yet Come 34
12. Dean Burgon Laid Down Even More Specific Things That Had to Precede the Major Revision of the "Textus Receptus" and Prepare the Revisers for This Tedious Task 34
a. Dean Burgon Said That Although There Are "More Manuscripts" Then Available For Study, "Who Knows How to Use Them?" 34
b. Dean Burgon Pointed Out That the "Ancient Versions"Are of No USE Unless Men Come Forward To "Tell Us What They All Contain" 35
c. Dean Burgon Lamented the Fact That, Though "The Fathers" Have Been "Better Edited" Yet They Have Not Been Satisfactorily "Indexed" 35
d. Dean Burgon Decried the Fact That the "Fundamental Principles of the Science of Textual Criticism" Were "Not Yet Comprehended" and Called For a "Generation of Students" Who Would Give Themselves Up to This Neglected Branch of Sacred Science 36
e. Dean Burgon's Other Prerequisites for Sound Textual Criticism 36
(1) We Need at Least "500 More Copies" of the New Testament "Diligently Collated" 36
(2) We Need At Least "100" "Ancient Lectionaries" "Very Exactly Collated" 36
(3) We Need the "Most Important Ancient Versions" To Be "Edited Afresh"and Let Their "Languages" Be "Really Mastered by Englishmen" 37
(4) We Need, "Above All," the Church "Fathers" to Yield "Their Precious Secrets" by "Ransacking" Them, "Indexing" Them , And "Diligently Inspecting" Them 37
f. Dean Burgon's Conclusion As to the Importance of These Four Preceding Suggestions 37
g. Dean Burgon Also Suggested That "Unpublished Works of the Ancient Greek Fathers" Should Be "Printed" 37
13. Dean Burgon Maintained That "For the First Time," "the Science of Textual Criticism" Must Be Pro- secuted "in a Scholarlike Manner" 38
14. Dean Burgon Wished to See God's "Highly Complex Pro- vision" For the "Effectual Conservation" of His "Crowning Master-Piece"--the Written Word-- "Duly Considered" 38
15. Dean Burgon Laid Down the Only "Trustworthy Method" in "Ascertaining the Truth of Scripture 39
16. Dean Burgon Affirmed That a Trustworthy "Textual Critic" Must Have a "Clear Head" and a "Calm, Dispassionate Judgment" 39
17. Dean Burgon Stated Clearly That There Could Be "No Compromise" Between the "New German System" Used by Westcott and Hort and the "Old English School of Textual Criticism" Adopted by Dean Burgon and Others Because They Are "Antagonistic Throughout" 39
18. Dean Burgon Laid Down His Method As One of "Humility" and "Self-Renouncing Labour" While Inspecting "the Best Copies, Fathers, Versions" 40
19. Dean Burgon Set Forth Three "Test Places" to Test Out His Sound Methods Versus Westcott and Hort's Fallacious and Unsound Methods: (1) "the Last Twelve Verses of Mark" (2) "the Angelic Hymn" of Luke 2:14; and (3) 1 Timothy 3.17" 40
12. Dean Burgon Laid Down Even More Specific Things That Had to Precede the Major Revision of the "Textus Receptus" and Prepare the Revisers for ThisTe- dious Task. Since there are so very many details under this caption, we will break it down by separate headings.
a. Dean Burgon Said That Although There Are "More Manuscripts" Then Available For Study, "Who Knows How to Use Them?" Dean Burgon wrote: True, that we enjoy access to--suppose from 1000 to 2000--more manuscripts than were available when the Textus Re- ceptus was formed. But nineteen-twentieths of these docu- ments for any use which has been made of them, might just as well be still lying in the monastic libraries from which they were obtained.--true, that four out of our five oldest uncials have come to light since the year1628, but who knows how to use them? [Dean Burgon, Revision Revised, op. cit. , p. 124.] Dean Burgon pointed out what is perfectly clear to all thinking people, that is, even though there are thousands of manuscripts now available (as there were then available in Dean Burgon's day) what value are there if few (if any) either know how to use them or else refuse to use them, (like the Westcott and Hort devotees refuse to use the thousands of Textus Receptus manuscripts)?
b. Dean Burgon Pointed Out That the "Ancient Versions"Are of No Use Unless Men Come Forward To "Tell Us What They All Contain." Dean Burgon wrote: True, that we have made acquaintance with certain ancient versions about which little or nothing was known 200 years ago: but,--(with the solitary exception of the Rev. Solomon Caesar Malan, the learned Vicar of Broadwindsor,--who, by the way is always ready to lend a torch to his benighted brethren,)--what living Englishman is able to tell us what they all contain? A smattering acquaintance with the languages of ancient Egypt--the Gothic, Aethiopic, Armenian, Georgian and Slavonian versions,--is of no manner of avail. In no department, probably, is "a little learning" more sure to prove "a dangerous thing." [Dean Bur- gon, Revision Revised, pp. 124-25.] Again, what value are the discovery of many "ancient versions" of the New Testament into other languages unless there are people who are thoroughly trained and skilled in those languages who are able to "tell us what they all contain."
c. Dean Burgon Lamented the Fact That, Though "The Fathers" Have Been "Better Edited" Yet They Have Not Been Satisfactorily "Indexed." Dean Burgon wrote: True, lastly, that the Fathers have been better edited within the last 250 years: during which period some fresh Patristic writings have also come to light. But, with the exception of Theodoret among the Greeks and Tertullian among the Latins, which of the Fathers has been satisfactorily indexed? [Dean Burgon, Revision Revised, p. 125] Here, Dean Burgon was calling for a "satisfactory index" of all the Fathers with Scriptural quotations all organized so that the textual critic might use it for research on exactly which text these Fathers had before them as they quoted, referred to, or used from memory. Dean Burgon's own index to the Scriptural quotations of the Church Fathers in various colors is an excellent step toward the fulfillment of this requirement. Perhaps it should be published and made available for scholars of the text of Scripture. Presently it is in the British Museum, unused, for the most part, and unavailable to the many who should have immediate and convenient access to it for work on various verses of the Bible. Dr. Jack Moorman, a Baptist missionary in England, as well as a member of our Dean Burgon Society Executive Committee, visited the British Museum and told me that because of the color-coding used by Dean Burgon, the indexes could not satisfactorily be published unless they were photographed in full color which would be very expensive. In addition to this, permission might not be granted by the British Museum for the project. It would also be difficult if not impossible to come up with the exact editions of the Church Fathers to which Dean Burgon was referring.
d. Dean Burgon Decried the Fact That the "Fundamental Principles of the Science of Textual Crit- icism" Were "Not Yet Comprehended" and Called For a "Generation of Students" Who Would Give Themselves Up to This Neglected Branch of Sacred Science. He wrote: The fundamental principles of the science of textual criticism are not yet apprehended. . . . let a generation of students give themselves entirely up to this neglected branch of Sacred science. [Dean Burgon, Revision Revised, p. 125.] Dean Burgon here showed the need for students of these "fundamental principles" of "the science of textual criticism" such as Dean Burgon himself held to. Where are these students today? Where is one generation of them? Where are those men who have "given themselves entirely up to this neglected branch of Sacred science"?

I could go on and on about this, but this will suffice for now.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/11 22:41









 Re:

Stever said:

I contend that the King James Bible is the only Bible to read and study. All of the thees and thous were archaic 200 years ago. Did people discontinue to use it? NO. It was used until about 1950 in this country. The decline of this Country (America) parallels the decline in use of the King James Bible.
-------------------------------------------------

Philologos responded:

This last statement is just nonsense. The decline in British morals through the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries also paralled the use of the King James version. Our weather has also been more erratic!
------------------------

Stever's response:

Can you read what I said? I said in America, not Great Britain. England is another story all together. Liberalism rules over there, and much of it started with Westcott and Hort and the Revision Committee that created the NIV in the late 1800's. You guys over there were way ahead of us. However, today, with all of the newer Bible Versions (thanks to your friends- Westcott & Hort---as well as human greed that is behind the publication of the newer copywrited versions) that we have to deal with over here, we are right on your heels!

WHAT YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE TO ACCEPT THE WESTCOTT AND HORT THEORY.

You have to believe that people who believed in the Deity of Christ often corrupt Bible manuscripts.
You have to believe that people who deny the Deity of Christ never corrupt Bible manuscripts.
You have to believe that people who died to get the gospel to the world couldn’t be trusted with the Bible.
You have to believe that their killers could be trusted.
You have to believe that the Celtic Christians, Waldenses, Albigenses, Henricians, Petrobrussians, Paulicians, the Greek Orthodox Church, the Protestant churches, the Anabaptists and the Baptists all did not have the pure word of God.
You have to believe that the Roman Catholics and the nineteenth century rationalists did have the pure word of God.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/11 22:56









 Re:

The In-Dwelling versus the Baptism of the Holy Spirit--- Continued.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 is a prophecy of the New Covenant and states that the Holy Spirit will come WITHIN believers of this Covenant.

25. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put WITHIN you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27. And I will put my spirit WITHIN you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


WITHIN

Hebrew word: Brq
Transliterated Word: qereb
Found 4 times in Ezekiel: 11:19; 22:27; 36:26; 36:27

Definition:

midst, among, inner part, middle
a. inward part
1. physical sense
2. as seat of thought and emotion
3. as faculty of thought and emotion
b. in the midst, among, from among (of a number of persons)
c. entrails (of sacrificial animals)
This is the Spiritual Baptism that Christ gave to his disciples when?- after he was glorified, but before his ascension:

John 20:22
22. And when he had said this, he BREATHED on them, and saith unto them, RECEIVE YE THE HOLY GHOST:

Breathed in the Greek:
Strong's Number: 1720
Transliterated: emphusao
Phonetic: em-foo-sah'-o

Text: from 1722 and phusao (to puff) [compare 5453]; to blow at or on: --breathe on.

Receive
(Greek)

Strong's Number: 2983
Transliterated: lambano
Phonetic: lam-ban'-o

Text: a prolonged form of a primary verb, which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses; TO TAKE (in very many applications, literally and figuratively [properly objective or active, TO GET HOLD OF; whereas 1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while 138 is more violent, to seize or remove]): --accept, + be amazed, assay, attain, bring, X when I call, catch, come on (X unto), + forget, have, HOLD, OBTAIN, RECEIVE (X after), take (away, up).

Please note, Christ has already been glorified when He gives them the Holy Spirit to receive (Strongs 2983) [to Take, to get hold of, to hold, to have, to obtain, to receive]


Now, compare the above to the “Promise of the Father” (Baptism of the Holy Spirit):
Acts 1:4-5
4. And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
8. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come UPON (epi) you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Upon----
Greek
Epi
Strong's Number: 1909
Transliterated: epi
Phonetic: ep-ee'

Text: a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution [with the genitive case], i.e. OVER, UPON, etc.; of rest (with the det.) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, UPON, etc.: --about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, [where-])fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-)on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively).

This word “epi” (upon) is in the Greek Aortic Verb Tense denoting continuous action or filling UPON.
1. A form of a verb in some languages, such as Classical Greek, that expresses action without indicating its completion or continuation.
This word upon (epi) in the Greek Aortic tense means a continuous, non-ending “upon” of the Holy Spirit, that happens with this baptism.

Again, we have two baptisms. The first baptism, prophesized in Ezekiel, is the baptism when the Holy Ghost comes in to us- the “indwelling. The Promise of the Father is the next baptism, received at Pentecost, and consists of the Holy Spirit “coming UPON”. This is the difference between the two. EPI IS THE WORD THAT DIFFERENTIATES THE TWO. We receive the first baptism (Spiritual) when we come to belief in Jesus Christ. This is a Spiritual Baptism that we do not touch, see, or feel but we are indeed baptized into the body of Christ. At the Baptism of the Holy Spirit we are empowered to be a witness.

If we continue to confuse the two we are the ones that suffer. Are we living the victorious walk of a Spirit Filled believer, with the gifts of the spirit, and the power to witness OR, are we just getting by, still locked away in the upper room, without the power to come out and face the Sanhedrin and turn the world upside down?

God bless,

Stever




 2005/7/12 1:07









 Re:

Dorcas said:

Joseph Glanvill, a founding member of the Royal Society (1650) was a delightful Anglican priest, who was thoroughly convinced of the gospel, well-grounded in the New Testament and of keen mind. He also got side tracked by this subject, except he interviewed witches. Why? Because he recognised that 'SADDUCEEISM' denied any resurrection - central to the Christian faith and Biblical record. In the 'new' atmosphere of scientifica sceptica, against classical education and some Greek philosophy which suggested there was nothing after death, he wanted to show there is indeed eternal life in Christ.

Stever's response:

Christ's resurrection should have been all of the proof that he needed, if he was walking with the Lord.

I think that the "occult" should be avoided at all costs. I was raised in it, and eventhough I am not afraid of it, and have overcome it by the blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ---I still avoid it.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/12 1:19
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Liberalism rules over there, and much of it started with Westcott and Hort and the Revision Committee that created the NIV in the late 1800's.


This is also nonsence. Westcott and Hort were the consequences of liberalism not the cause of it.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/12 2:19Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Stever writes

Quote:
Again, we have two baptisms. The first baptism, prophesized in Ezekiel, is the baptism when the Holy Ghost comes in to us- the “indwelling. The Promise of the Father is the next baptism, received at Pentecost, and consists of the Holy Spirit “coming UPON”. This is the difference between the two. EPI IS THE WORD THAT DIFFERENTIATES THE TWO. We receive the first baptism (Spiritual) when we come to belief in Jesus Christ. This is a Spiritual Baptism that we do not touch, see, or feel but we are indeed baptized into the body of Christ. At the Baptism of the Holy Spirit we are empowered to be a witness.


But the only prepositions that can properly be used with the Greek word baptizo are 'eis' and 'en'. If you understand that to baptise means to immerse you should understand that we can never create a sentence which says 'baptised [u]upon[/u]'. It just would not make sense. If you are going to use the metaphor of 'baptise' the next preposition has to be 'eis' or 'en'.

The Ezekiel passage has the creative metaphor of 'new birth' at its heart rather than the destructive metaphor of 'baptism'. They are different ways of looking at the same thing.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/12 2:24Profile









 Re: concerning baptism - resurrection re Stever

Quote:
Christ's resurrection should have been all of the proof that he needed, if he was walking with the Lord.

I believe he was. Precisely because it was [i]obvious[/i] to him that Christ was raised from the dead, he wanted to ensure his generation were not seduced away from believing this central truth.

 2005/7/12 9:20









 Re:

Philologos said:

But the only prepositions that can properly be used with the Greek word baptizo are 'eis' and 'en'. If you understand that to baptise means to immerse you should understand that we can never create a sentence which says 'baptised upon'. It just would not make sense. If you are going to use the metaphor of 'baptise' the next preposition has to be 'eis' or 'en'.

The Ezekiel passage has the creative metaphor of 'new birth' at its heart rather than the destructive metaphor of 'baptism'. They are different ways of looking at the same thing.


Stever's response:

I have been trying to communicate this to you since my first post on this thread --that we do not have to be immeresed into somehthing to be baptized into it, as far as the NEW TESTAMENT IS CONCERNED. This is a common misconception in the Christian body--please pay attention to what it says in regards to New Testament Baptism:

Eastons Bible Dictionary

Baptism:

Old Testament

To put an element or liquid over or on it. Nothing therefore as to the mode of baptism can be concluded from the mere word used. The word has a wide latitude of meaning, not only in the New Testament, but also in the LXX. Version of the Old Testament, where it is used of the ablutions and baptisms required by the MOSAIC LAW. These were effected by immersion, and by affusion and SPRINKLING; and the same word, "WASHINGS" (Heb. 9:10, 13, 19, 21) or "BAPTISMS," designates them all.

New Testament

In the New Testament THERE CANNOT BE FOUND A SINGLE WELL-AUTHENTICATED INSTANCE OF THE OCCURRENCE OF THE WORD WHERE IT NECESSARILY MEANS IMMERSION. Moreover, none of the instances of baptism recorded in the Acts of the Apostles (2:38-41; 8:26-39; 9:17, 18; 22:12-16; 10:44-48; 16:32-34) favours the idea that it was by dipping the person baptized, or by immersion, while in some of them such a mode was highly improbable.

Today, we are in the Spirit, in the New Testament. We walk after the Spirit, not after the flesh, as they did in the Old Testament!

The Promise of the Father:
Acts 1:

5…………………………….. but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence……………
8. But ye shall RECEIVE POWER, after that the Holy Ghost is come UPON (epi) you: and YE SHALL BE WITNESSES UNTO ME both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and UNTO THE UTTERMOST PART OF THE EARTH.


Upon----
Greek
Epi
Strong's Number: 1909
Transliterated: epi
Phonetic: ep-ee'

Text: a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution [with the genitive case], i.e. OVER, UPON, etc.; of rest (with the det.) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, UPON, etc.: --about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, [where-])fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-)on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively).

This word “epi” (upon) is in the Greek Aortic Verb Tense denoting continuous action or filling UPON.
1. A form of a verb in some languages, such as Classical Greek, that expresses action without indicating its completion or continuation.
This word upon (epi) in the Greek Aortic tense means a continuous, non-ending “upon” of the Holy Spirit, that happens with this baptism.


This is the description that I am referring to. The Holy Spirit came upon (epi) them:

3. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat UPON (EPI) each of them.
4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Is this so hard for you to understand Philologos? Are you telling me that you have received this type of Baptism yourself? Do you witness to the lost, do you operate in the “gifts of the Spirit”? How about the word of knowledge? Is that a weapon in your arsenal?

This same identical baptism occurred with Cornelius as well:

Acts 10
44. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost FELL ON all them which heard the word.
45. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

The Christian body is confused. The Baptism referred to above, the Promise of the Father is a baptism –A SPIRITUAL BAPTISM THAT EMPOWERS THE BELIEVER. It has nothing to do with water.

Just like the Potter (God) who works the clay. Does he just use one hand to mold the clay to his liking? No, He uses two. One on the inside, and one on the outside. That outside hand is missing in Christian believers who have not received the "Promise of the Father".

Eastons Bible Dictionary

Baptism:

Old Testament

To put an element or liquid over or on it. Nothing therefore as to the mode of baptism can be concluded from the mere word used. The word has a wide latitude of meaning, not only in the New Testament, but also in the LXX. Version of the Old Testament, where it is used of the ablutions and baptisms required by the MOSAIC LAW. These were effected by immersion, and by affusion and SPRINKLING; and the same word, "WASHINGS" (Heb. 9:10, 13, 19, 21) or "BAPTISMS," designates them all.

New Testament

In the New Testament THERE CANNOT BE FOUND A SINGLE WELL-AUTHENTICATED INSTANCE OF THE OCCURRENCE OF THE WORD WHERE IT NECESSARILY MEANS IMMERSION. Moreover, none of the instances of baptism recorded in the Acts of the Apostles (2:38-41; 8:26-39; 9:17, 18; 22:12-16; 10:44-48; 16:32-34) favours the idea that it was by dipping the person baptized, or by immersion, while in some of them such a mode was highly improbable.


The Baptism that I am talking about is Spiritual in nature and involves the Holy Spirit coming UPON the believer, that is the Promise of the Father revealed to us by Jesus Christ. The way that I can maybe describe it is more like the overflow, the filling of the Holy Spirit that already resides in our hearts. This experience (Baptism of the Holy Ghost, the Promise of the Father) is the experience described by Christ when He said: " 37. In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, OUT OF HIS BELLY SHALL FLOW RIVERS OF LIVING WATER."


Have you been baptized by this Baptism, Philologos, the “Promise of the Father? I think not.

God Bless,

Stever



 2005/7/13 0:19









 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
Quote:
Christ's resurrection should have been all of the proof that he needed, if he was walking with the Lord.

I believe he was. Precisely because it was [i]obvious[/i] to him that Christ was raised from the dead, he wanted to ensure his generation were not seduced away from believing this central truth.



Stever's response:

So, are you saying that this was Westcott & Horts motive as well? Is there some redeeming quality in these men that I have missed?

 2005/7/13 0:32





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