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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Corrie Ten Boom Warns of the Dangers of Pretrib Teaching

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ThyKingCome
Member



Joined: 2011/4/19
Posts: 169
Southern CA

 Re:

Hi brother Sree,

I think the distinction that is needed between persecution and The Great Tribulation is that The Great Tribulation is a specific 7 year period of time preceding the return of Christ to the earth to establish His reign.

Persecution is something that has always existed as Jesus promised it would when men would persecute, oppose and even violently oppose and kill Christians for the Christian testimony and identity.

Examples of persecution include the martyring of Steven, the apostles, Nero, Bloody Mary and also less violent forms such as labor camps in North Korea (to name a few).

During the Great Tribulation there will also be an intense time of suffering for God's people and the antichrist will make war with the saints. So those who hold to the Pre-trib view are not saying that there will not be persecution during the Great Tribulation. Better stated, the Bible does not teach that Christians are exempt from persecution now or in the time of the Great Tribulation.

Persecution: Man's hatred towards God which is meted out in attack on Christians (ex: Martyrs)

God's Wrath: God's justice meted out on men for wickedness and rejecting Christ (ex: Sodom & Gomorrah, The Flood, 2nd half of Great Tribulation)

Is this helpful to you brother?


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Brother Kevin

 2017/5/12 11:43Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re:

Quote:

During the Great Tribulation there will also be an intense time of suffering for God's people and the antichrist will make war with the saints.



how is it any different from what I have posted? I also believe great tribulation is the time of great persecution. Yes I know Jesus spoke about a specific time period before his return, but it is persecution in a different magnitude.

Quote:

So those who hold to the Pre-trib view are not saying that there will not be persecution during the Great Tribulation.
Better stated, the Bible does not teach that Christians are exempt from persecution now or in the time of the Great Tribulation.




If this is the Pre Trib view then how can Christians exist during the great tribulation if the Lord has taken them already during rapture? I thought pre trib view does not believe that Christians will be involved during great tribulation.
I


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Sreeram

 2017/5/12 12:09Profile
ThyKingCome
Member



Joined: 2011/4/19
Posts: 169
Southern CA

 Re:

Brother,

The belief is that the church is taken out before the Great Tribulation, but then the 144,00 Jews that are sealed are sent into the world to preach the gospel, and there will be tribulation saints that come to the Lord (Jews and Gentiles) during this time. These are the ones spoken of being persecuted and martyred during the Great Tribulation.

Hope this helps brother. I know you didn't want to dig into this one but was just trying to help clarify so you have accurate information on what distinguishes the views.


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Brother Kevin

 2017/5/12 13:27Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

Hi Bearmaster
What you are missing is =
Im not debating whether post or trib view is correct or not!I am saying the post and conclusions of the post are fundamentally flawed.We cant base our trib view on the word of Corrie but on the word of God.
Address the objections I have made ,urs staff

 2017/5/12 13:33Profile









 Re: Staff

Brother respectfully I posted the video from Corrie Ten Boon to show the dangers of holding to a pre tribulational view of the scriptures.

I am not basing my understanding of a tribulation view on what Corrie Ten Boon says, though I respect her dearly as a sister.

In the other thread, I have reasoned my case out of the word of God and invited others to respond.

Below is what I posted on the other thread. I see out of the scriptures that there are only 2 resurrections. There is a resurrection of the righteous and a resurrection of the unrighteous. From what I see in the New Testament, it takes place at the end of the age. Please show me where I'm erring in this understanding.

I have searched in vain through the New Testament to find proof of a pretrib rapture. To find proof that the church is resurrected before the 7 year tribulation. And I cannot find it.

If you or anybody in this forum thinks I'm in error, then please show me from the word of God. In other words, sola scriptura.

So again, please show me from the scriptures where the pre tribulation view is taught.

My post below.

John 5:28-29

___Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice, and will come forth, those who did good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.___

Luke 14:14

___and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."___

Revelation 20:4-6

___Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Brethren, based on the above verses, it appears there will be one resurrection of the righteous. The second resurrection appears to be the resurrection of the condemned. Or the unrighteous.

If there is only one resurrection of the righteous. And based on a context of the above verses that appears to be at the end of the age. Or at least before the millennial reign of Christ. How does the pretrib rapture figure into this?

The pretrib rapture position would say there would have to be 2 resurrections of the righteous. The resurrection of the church before the tribulation. And then the rest of the tribulation saints before the millennium. Those who come out of the tribulation.

Somebody please tell me, what am I missing here? I am somewhat confused. I cannot find one New Testament scripture that supports the pretrib position of 2 resurrections of the righteous.. But I am open to be instructed.

Bro Blaine

 2017/5/12 13:56
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re:

Quote:

The belief is that the church is taken out before the Great Tribulation, but then the 144,00 Jews that are sealed are sent into the world to preach the gospel, and there will be tribulation saints that come to the Lord (Jews and Gentiles) during this time. These are the ones spoken of being persecuted and martyred during the Great Tribulation.



Thank you brother for explaining. Sounds very creative instead of scriptural! But is there a scriptural proof for this assumption that 144K are Jews and they will only (along with their converts) suffer persecution etc?


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Sreeram

 2017/5/12 14:25Profile









 Re:

But is there scriptural support for a pretrib rapture. My understanding is this doctrine originated with the Jesuits and then was popularized by Derby and Scoffield.

Thus the idea of the church being taken out before the tribulation is a modern idea about 150 years old. Historically the believing church has held that the saints will go through the tribulation. Also there will be one return of Jesus. That after the tribulation.

This can be substantiated from the word if God. I have given scriptures on the other thread. I ask again what am I missing.

Bro Blaine

 2017/5/12 14:52
ThyKingCome
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Joined: 2011/4/19
Posts: 169
Southern CA

 Re:

Brother Sree,

Revelation 7 talks about the sealed Jews and their ministry and also the tribulation saints that are martyred.

God bless you,


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Brother Kevin

 2017/5/12 16:23Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re:

Quote:

Revelation 7 talks about the sealed Jews and their ministry and also the tribulation saints that are martyred.



I do not agree that those are Jews. Jews have nothing special in New Covenant compared to a believing Gentile. Just because it is mentioned that from every tribe of Israel, it does not mean they are Jews. Many things in revelation are symbols. This number 144K and also the tribes are symbols. We cannot take straight forward meaning and form theologies.

Also revelation is not sequential occurrence of events. These are just scenes that John witnessed in heaven.


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Sreeram

 2017/5/12 16:32Profile
ThyKingCome
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Joined: 2011/4/19
Posts: 169
Southern CA

 Re:

Dear bro Blaine,

I don't think you will find any verse in the Bible that says "Behold the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation rapture" and then give a verse by verse account of it.

Here I think are some of the most convincing arguments for this view and why so many see it as scripturally valid and not just idealistic. All of these points have scriptures that can go along with them, but since I am not a theologian and am borrowing company time to throw this together, please forgive my brevity.

1. Immanency of Christ’s Return
2. God’s Pattern of Removal Before Judgment
3. Conspicuous absence of the Church in Revelation 4
4. Jewish Marriage Customs and Imagery
5. Distinct descriptions of Christ’s coming Indicate Two separate Events

Immanency of Christ’s Return
The teaching to be ready for Jesus’ sudden return as a thief in the night doesn’t really go too well with Mid & Post views since it’s fair to assume that using Daniel’s prophetic timeline one could calculate His return using the signs in the prophecies themselves.

God’s Pattern of Removal Before Judgment

When God judged Sodom & Gomorrah, Sent the Flood and issued divine judgment for the purpose of inflicting punitive judgment for sin He removed those who were deemed righteous. Of course, the Egyptians were judged while the Israelites were in the land, but God’s intentions were different for sending the plagues. He wasn’t trying to destroy Egypt for their sin, He was demonstrating his authority to release His kids. Also, when the Hebrew young men were preserved in the furnace, this was not an act of judgment from God, but persecution from men (King Nebuchadnezzar).

Conspicuous absence of the Church in Revelation after chapter 4.

Once the church age is complete in chapter 3, you don’t see the church mentioned on the earth again. Instead, you do see worshiping hosts in heaven before the throne, which seem to indicate the church is in heaven at this point.

Jewish Marriage Customs and Imagery
Jesus comforted the disciples the night of His crucifixion with the promise to come again and take them to His Father’s house, that they would be with Him where He has been working. This language is in agreement with how Jewish marriages took place, even down to the specific details of preparing a house attached to the Father’s house, showing up unannounced for the bride. The parable of the 10 virgins lends to this imagery.

Distinct descriptions of Christ’s coming Indicate Two separate Events
The 2nd advent of Christ is so magnificent that it’s almost impossible to wrap our minds around it. I don’t recall the numbers but I remember hearing that there are 4 or 5 times more prophecies for His 2nd coming than His 1st. Not sure on the exact amount. What is significant is that when you read how it will pan out there seems to be two different events described.

1. An appearing of Jesus that is sudden, unannounced and unexpected where He gathers His saints to Him in the clouds, upon which they and the righteous dead receive their resurrected bodies instantly and then return to heaven with Him.
2. A coming of Jesus that is calculated, prophetically precise to the day (1260 days after the abomination of desolation) where He comes with saints armed for war to destroy his adversaries and descends upon the mount of olives to establish His rule on the earth for 1000 years.

If the coming I just described is the only coming of Jesus, then why would there be talk of Him coming as a thief to snatch away when He is coming for war? And why would the 10 virgins be asking for entry with the bride when they could go visit Jesus on the earth in Jerusalem?

These are some of the views, distinctions, and arguments for the a Pre-tribulation rapture. This view is not without its weaknesses and does not solve all mysteries and answer all questions.

I am not tethered to a view, but to Scripture, and I do not have a flag on any one hill. I think this view makes the most sense mainly because of the Immanency factor alone, and also the distinction in the appearances of Christ. It’s not a hill that anyone should be dying on, since Jesus died on the only hill that really matters!! I think the best thing we can do with all this is stay sober, stay vigilant, memorize scripture, witness to the lost, stay in fellowship, keep ourselves un-spotted from this World and love His appearing. If we do this, we will doubtless be ready for whatever the Lord brings us to or through.

With His love,
-Kevin


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Brother Kevin

 2017/5/12 16:49Profile





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