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TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5476
NC, USA

 Re:

Hi Sandra-

I appreciate this thread.

In regard to satans origins and fall, scripture is exceedingly, and I mean exceedingly scant with info. The Isaiah passsge you reference and the Ezekiel passage often referenced specifically state who they are referring to. Anything else is simply being imported into the text including the idea of a dual fulfillment.

As to the rev 12 passage about him being cast out, I would say the war in heaven occurs during Jesus' earthly ministry and the defeat takes place after the cross.

The idea of satan at one time being the most beautiful angel and the head of heavens worship band is entirely speculative with the only support based on poetic language describing specifically named historical persons.

Of course that is only my own opinion!


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Todd

 2017/5/25 14:25Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7474
Mississippi

  Revelation 13:1-10 NASB

Revelation 13:1-10 NASB

1 And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.

2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.

3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;

4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?”

5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.


7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.

8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.

10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

In looking at this scripture, studying it more, searching out answers to questions that arose I am becoming more convinced then ever that a working knowledge of this book will go a long ways to protect one from deception.

Many years ago I heard a pacifist speaker declare that the role of the church is to be involved in political peacemaking via diplomacy - it can and would happen if peace-loving people would apply themselves!!! At the time when I heard this I was a young woman and you do not challenge one who is old enough to be your mom, and a well educated one at that but I saw red flags, Praise the LORD for that.

Let us take a look what the text teaches us.

A beast arises from the sea having ten horns and seven heads! And..the dragon - the devil - empowers him.

The dragon gave this beast:
1. His power
2. His throne
3. His authority.

The beast:
1. spoke arrogant words
2. Spoke blasphemies against God, his temple/those who dwell in heaven.
3. Warred against the saints
4. Had authority over people of all tribes, nations and tongues.
5. But his rule was limited in time - not indefinite.

In the past many scholars have speculated about the identity of these heads. History is rife with despotic rulers that would well fit the description given here. Every time a ruler is given to murdering people one wonders whether he is one of these heads.

I got curious: who and how many rulers since Revelation was recorded would fit this description? I found a list on the web of the world's 25 greatest despotic rulers. I discovered two things: one - the rulers I thought would be considered despotic were not even listed: Genghis Khan and Diocletian. The second fact was that most of the despotic rulers listed were active during the 20th century!

Well....! What does this tell me? It informs me things are getting worse and worse and there is no hope of any relenting until Jesus makes a physical return. Things will NOT get any better and no amount of any political diplomacy by any church will bring about peace among nations.

What can Believers expect? Persecution. Is it limited? Yes. Some are destined to be killed, others are destined to be held captive. And those that survive? Not so sure but what death would be a welcome release from the stress inflicted upon Believers. Believers are called to faithfulness and therein lies the reward. To teach otherwise is to undermine whatever faith a weak brother or sister may have. Challenging, is it not?

Bro. Richard Wurmbrand said how they used to take young Christians to the zoo, show them the animals and warn them that if they follow the LORD Jesus they may well be thrown to the lions. Very wise...

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/5/26 15:18Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7474
Mississippi

 Re:

QUOTE:

"Of course that is only my own opinion!"

I am not so sure one can study eschatology without forming opinions or at least form some theories. In doing so one is spurred on to study more to either affirm your theory or disprove it.

I suspect the Holy Spirit loves this interest, keeping your quest for truth alive, active. In the process of this searching one gains new insights - never ending and this is so inspiring, I think. When people share their insights it may provide another with the connecting link in their pursuit to connect the dots that defied connecting.

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/5/26 15:26Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7474
Mississippi

 Re: Revelation 13:3, 12. NASB

3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;

12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.

I want to comment on this head that had suffered a fatal would but was healed and came back more powerful then ever.

I do not profess to know who, what this head is, what government it represents. But I do know what I have witnessed in my 70 years of life here on planet earth.

There have been power brokers who have come along, worked to become forces to be reckoned with. As a child, young girl, I recall people being scared of the National Council of Churches and the World Council of Churches that worked to get all churches to unite, not all necessarily Christian. Many concerned pastors spoke out against it and in time it no longer became a force to be reckoned with. Not sure if they still exist...

Then there is Marxism or communism. I am told they came close to taking over the USA back in the 1930s but it did not happen. Then there was the civil rights movement that was energized by the commies that struck fear in the hearts and minds of those of us who lived in the south; and then the cold war with the USSR. The communists were taking over countries right and left. This created a lot of fear. While this threat is not as overt today it could be said it is more covert. The WCC, the Communists all have their origins in recent history - they arose and fell - kind of. Then there is an another force that today is a real threat to world peace: Islam.

It was not all that long ago missionaries to the Muslim world were not successful in winning people to the LORD. No go. Muslims lived, had their own governments and lived quietly. But it was not always so. At one point in history they were a powerful force to be reckoned with. Today they kill Believers, rape the women, inflicting atrocities unimaginable upon people. Are they the people this scripture describes? I do not know, but do know I have witnessed the rise and dying and resurrecting of powerful entities that threaten Believers' well-being.

As I ponder these powerful philosophies I become aware we must always be on the alert to NOT put our trust in any organization that promises ease of life. We also notice the means they use to defuse objections - by the use of miracles. Miracles do not give validity to the source that empowers a group or individual. In my heart I must guard my attitude towards miracles - know God can and does perform them but also know the devil can imitate God, too. Therein lies the need for discernment.

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/5/29 15:54Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7474
Mississippi

 Revelation 13:16-18 NASB

Revelation 13:16-18 NASB
16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,

17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

18 ere is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.


If it were not so serious it would be laughable but I am not so sure that the question of the identify of this beast has united most people of differing views on eschatology. Who is it that goes by the name/number of 666? Speculation have been rife for years on his identity.

In many places governments have restricted people from buying/selling unless they have a certain license, permit to do so. An argument can be made this refers to merchants and not private exchange of goods - buying and selling.

Believers in the past have been reluctant to take a Social Security number for the very reasons as noted here. But the reality is that currently this is a number that will not enhance your ability of buying or selling.

But what about the chip some are having implanted under your skin with your personal info? Many are skeptical of it and for good reasons. However, it requires an electronic reader to access this info. While I have serious issues with this I suspect the mark of the beast as recorded here is far more sinister.

I suspect it will be a mark that can be read without any electronic reader, scanner; regardless, which it is - or maybe it will be both - I see God using our doubts, cautions as a means to wean us from dependency upon the marketplace for our physical well-being because the day will come that unless you have this mark you cannot buy or sell if you do not have it. Then..how will one live? This is the issue. But if we are destined to die, be killed so it will be.

Scripture teaches us that life will be much rougher then it has ever been so we need to beware of false teachers who promise a person a life of ease if we embrace their theology. Perhaps this is the most important lesson one can learn from this passage, but always being aware that the day will come when a person will be identified as 666.

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/5/30 14:00Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5476
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 Re: Revelation 13:16-18 NASB

Do you believe acceptance of this "mark" will be accompanied by an outright renunciation of Christ? If not, how could it affect ones salvation?

If not accompanied by a renunciation, how can we be sure if the mark is being employed (if it is a literal future mark- and that is a staggeringly huge "if.").

In Rome a person could deny Christ and declare Caesar as lord to avoid martyrdom. If this mark is a literal and future mark (again, a huge if) I think something similar would be in play.

In other words, I don't think mere conveniences or security measures (such as chip credit cards or even skin implants) are in view w/o some renunciation of Christ or declaration of AC as lord(if literal future AC).

Personally I believe the talk of the mark is entirely spiritual and conveys the idea of spiritual loyalty. A person is either marked by Christ or marked by the world system.


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Todd

 2017/5/30 14:22Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7474
Mississippi

 Re:

Todd,

It is my opinion this mark is both - literal and spiritual, preceded by the spiritual.

In the early church when one renounced faith in Jesus Christ to save his hide, he was rarely 'forgiven' by his brotherhood.

I suspect an outright renunciation of faith in Jesus is required before acceptance of this mark because later we read of the Redeemed and one of their characteristics was that they did not take on the mark of this beast.

It is scary when one thinks of it: how is one to clothe and feed himself and his family if one cannot buy or sell? I suspect it is easier for me at this point in life to consider it of less consequence since we are a tad bit old; the alternative spooks me much: life eternally lived in hell.

My understanding? What say?

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/5/31 11:14Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7474
Mississippi

  Revelation 14:1-5 NASB

Revelation 14:1-5 NASB

1 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.

3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.

4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

5 And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

OH! I love this, don't you?? Imagine with your imagination what John is describing here: a choir of 144,000 people singing accompanied by an orchestra that sounded like many waters, 'thunder' (percussion?), and harpists (strings)!! Wow! And they sang before the throne, the elders and the four living creatures. The song was an original which only they could sing!! WOW! Imagine the beauty of sound accompanied by joy and delight. How beautiful this is.

Love it, don't you?

I find it very interesting that throughout this book the LORD reveals to John a bit of the glories of heaven, being in the presence of the angels, etc., and then contrasts this with the characteristics of the devil - conflict, deprivation, who promises nothing eternally that satisfies. The contrast is stark like light and darkness which it truly is.

I noticed one more thing about these 144,000: it says there was no lie found in their mouth. Hmmmm.... In recent times I have become aware that lying is likely the most common sin among Christian professing people and engaged in with little impunity - it has become socially acceptable. It says no lie was found in their mouths. Amazing.

And this is not all: they were chaste, morally pure. One can debate whether these were singles who were chaste, never married, but to be married and being intimate with your spouse does not make one impure, does it? To be intimate with your spouse is a command given by God to Adam and Eve and therefore it is not sin, but pure. In any case, I suspect none of us will be numbered with these 144,000 because they were identified as being "purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb."

It may be these 144,000 will be the elite choir that sings for those who surround the throne. Regardless, I do not doubt it is exquisite.

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/5/31 11:33Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7474
Mississippi

 Re: Revelation 14:6-7 NASB

Revelation 14:6-7 NASB

6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;

7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”


I find this fascinating - in the middle of all the woes God will inflict upon the world there is this act of mercy, compassion initiated, carried out, empowered by angels to get the message of salvation out to the people - to every tongue, tribe and nation.

I am in no position to say where we are in the timetable of the last days, but I have become aware of people coming to the LORD without any human intervention in recent years. Years ago we never heard of incidents anything close like what we are hearing today: people who have never heard the gospel, who have never met a missionary have experienced a visitation by the LORD Jesus and have come to him. If we did it was a rare situation - like Sammy Morris or Jayapradha Bandela. It used to be considered almost a waste of time to send missionaries to the muslim peoples but today we are hearing of many coming to the LORD via dreams.

In any case, these verse prove to me how God is working hard to make sure the message of salvation is shared to all peoples, even if he has to use angels to get the job done.. This should silence critics (although I doubt it will) who declare God is unjust to send people to hell: "what about all those who never heard of Jesus?" they say. I say God knows who will repent and will make sure they will have the opportunity to do so. We also know many have the opportunity but refuse to do so.

Anyhow, I find these verse encouraging in how it demonstrates the love and compassion of the LORD for all of mankind.

Sandra

NOTE: I mentioned Sammy Morris. "Sammy Morris" by A.R.Evans is a wonderful read. It was published in 1958 by Zondervan. It will thrill your soul. My husband was given this book as a young boy and I have since purchased other copies through ebay.


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Sandra Miller

 2017/6/1 11:45Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5476
NC, USA

 Re:

Quote: "I say God knows who will repent and will make sure they will have the opportunity to do so. "

Not to split hairs too fine- but if God knows who will repent doesn't that mean they will repent?


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Todd

 2017/6/1 12:18Profile





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