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ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7480
Mississippi

 Re: God Is Love Even In His Wrath

Amen! Mary.

Your point is the one I am seeing as well and am so blessed. You know, love and mercy without wrath is totally meaningless. It is this concept that is woven throughout all of scripture - God's anger, wrath against sin but he works to save us from his wrath - this is mercy and love in action - it is enough to leave you humbled and shaking your head in amazement.

I see a lot of theology in Revelation - the nature of God is well defined if we but allow it to teach us.

Glad this study is evoking an interest in the book. It remains among my favorite!

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/6/26 9:35Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7480
Mississippi

  Revelation 18:7 NASB

Revelation 18:7 NASB

7 “To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, ‘I SIT as A QUEEN AND I AM NOT A WIDOW, and will never see mourning.’

Chapter 18 is an amazing chapter. I love to read it slowly savoring it as I go. Not sure why this is so - hope it does not mean I am being sadistic... Maybe it is that all these things that work to trap us into it whorl of false security is systematically being destroyed and somehow this feeds my satisfaction?

In any case, I find verse eight insightful, regardless what your view on eschatology. It informs one of the deceitfulness of wealth, affluence. "I sit as a queen and never see mourning." Wow! Talk about bragging! But you know this is what wealth does - it makes one feel like he is immune to suffering, does not need anything else - "I get what I want, when I want and how I want" - all serving ME - I am queen, after all, my own boss and am holden to no one!

Years ago preachers used to preach about the dangers of affluence but not anymore. What happened?

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/6/26 9:47Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7480
Mississippi

 Revelation 18 NASB

Revelation 18 NASB

1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.

3 “For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality.”

4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

5 for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

6 “Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her.

7 “To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, ‘I SIT as A QUEEN AND I AM NOT A WIDOW, and will never see mourning.’

8 “For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.

9 “And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning,

10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

11 “And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more—

12 cargoes of gold and silver and precious stones and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet, and every kind of citron wood and every article of ivory and every article made from very costly wood and bronze and iron and marble,

13 and cinnamon and spice and incense and perfume and frankincense and wine and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and cargoes of horses and chariots and slaves and human lives.

14 “The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them.

15 “The merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning,

16 saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls;

17 for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance,

18 and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?’

19 “And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!’

20 “Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her.”

21 Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer.

22 “And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer;

23 and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery.

24 “And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.”

COMMENT:

As I look at this chapter in its entirety, I feel a bit overwhelmed. Since this is the case, I printed the entire text so one can get the context of what it teaches me.

We see here in chapter eighteen a global economy going kaput - all initiated by God, something that cannot be averted. This economy impacted all goods - everything from the essential to the luxurious to the sinful - everything. All the markets went belly-up. And people cried, v.19.

The WORD is telling the saints to come out of her, v.4. The warning is so that we would not be effected by the plagues that will befall Babylon.

Is Babylon operational now? Some would say it is, saying it is NY plus other places, but I am not sure - I see the possibilities of it being other cities that serve as a hub for global commerce. In any case regardless who it is in modern times, we are told to get out of her. Hmmm....How is this possible?

We live in a highly developed agricultural,aquaculture community area. Much of it is sustained by federal subsidies. Very little manufacturing is done in our county. In the counties north of us the economy is driven by education and industries whose chief buyers are the government. Plus, a lot of folks are on public assistance. If the gov would stop all its funding in these three counties, it would be total chaos. Total. I am not sure how safe we would be. I may have plenty of food preserved but would it be safe when people no longer get food stamps or have an income to buy goods? Could we sell our products when people no longer have jobs? Very few businesses operate outside of any federal subsidies, very few.

If the economy goes kaput music will be silenced, craftsman will have no jobs (22). How can a person prepare himself for such total devastation in the economy, society?

I feel helpless when I consider how intertwined we are in the global economy. In our work, we are flying under the government's radar other then paying taxes but it is dependent upon others having an income, too.

I do not know the answer other then we are called to remove ourselves from Babylon - not sure what it all entails....what do you say?

I am confident that if the LORD tells us to remove ourselves from Babylon He will be there to provide for us.

Still, how can one remove himself fro Babylon, or does this have no practical application for us today?

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/6/27 12:20Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7480
Mississippi

 Revelation 18:8 NASB

Revelation 18:8 NASB

8 “For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.

The morning as I read through this chapter wondering what will inspire me this verse grabbed me like it never has before: "God....is strong."

"God....is strong." So, what is new about that? Nothing. I knew this. But when one reads through this chapter a feeling of helplessness can overwhelm a body because a few against a horde of evil men is challenging, at best. We feel intimidated, powerless. But God is strong. He is stronger then any force or power that works to destroy us and God! And you know what? Allowing this reality to sink into the innermost parts of ones being is a great fear-killer! Yes!

Reminds me of this song:

There is more with us then be with them
We're on the winning side.
With banners unfurled
We'll tell the whole world
That Jesus is captain and Guide.
There's nothing to fear
When He is near
Though fierce the conflict may be.
We'll never give in
The fight against sin
With Jesus there's victory.

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/6/28 11:56Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7480
Mississippi

  Revelation 18:20 NASB

Revelation 18:20 NASB

20 “Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her.”

Revelation Chapter 18 is so gut wrenching...dunno exactly why unless it deals with issues we have experienced on a very small scale and I know the fun it evokes in its victims. But the situation here is so vast, so huge, so encompassing it boggles the mind.

Then I read in verse twenty: "Rejoice!" Well!!! Can I rejoice to see God inflict plagues upon Babylon? Why do I find this difficult?

I am reminded many times of the parable of the prodigal son who found himself feeding hogs, an unclean animal according to Jewish law. And he was so desperate he would have wanted to eat their feed as well. Once he experiences utter helplessness he returns to his father. Today when moderns see people experience the consequences of sinful choices they run to their aid to soften the pain instead of waiting until they are absolutely desperate and will run to God - first. Hard thing for moderns to do this.

We have been so conditioned to help the suffering around us, making them comfortable while they recover from sinful choices. But are we helping them? I am becoming aware one can easily hinder the work of the Holy Spirit with our benevolent mindset of working to fix things superficially without getting to the core issue.

Can I rejoice when God inflicts judgement upon sin? Why or why not?

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/6/29 11:04Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7480
Mississippi

 Revelation 20:9, 10

Revelation 20:9, 10

9 Then he said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he said to me, “These are true words of God.”

10 Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

COMMENT:
This phrase grabbed me: "For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

The context wherein this was said was after John was so overwhelmed with what was shown to him that he fell at the angel's feet to worship him.The angel rebuked him by informing John that he - the angel - is a servant of him (John) and all who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Angels are our servants. They serve the saints.

"For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” What is this?

As I reflect on what a testimony is it is the report of a witness of what happened. King David tells us in the Psalms how he loves God's testimonies - the stories of how God worked with people and the reaction to this working. David loved God's testimonies. (And I do, too!)

The testimony of Jesus would be the same: He shares what is, and how with little explanation to justify his decisions. To share Jesus testimony earns for us the service of the angels. And this sharing is the spirit of prophecy. We are called to prophecy. Among the gifts of the spirit this one is regarded as being the most important one. And it is accompanied by the support of the angels. Get that! Can I wrap my mind around this? Perhaps our appreciation of the support of angels would be enhanced if one were to do a study of them based on what the WORD says about them.

Sandra



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Sandra Miller

 2017/7/1 10:18Profile
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3414
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Revelation 18:20 NASB

Quote:
by ginnyrose
We have been so conditioned to help the suffering around us, making them comfortable while they recover from sinful choices. But are we helping them? I am becoming aware one can easily hinder the work of the Holy Spirit with our benevolent mindset of working to fix things superficially without getting to the core issue.


I'm thinking of the jail ministry that I take part in and parents or (mostly) girlfriends put money on the inmates books to make them comfortable, like at home. The jail has indigent care for shampoo, letters and such but not for treats as potato chips, coffee & candy bars.

Sadly, some family's will go without to put money on their child's (boyfriend's) books. I, too, have thought that in this one area their benevolent mindset hinder's the work of the Holy Spirit in the inmate.

Just another take on the issue.
God bless,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2017/7/1 13:33Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7480
Mississippi

 Re:

Lisa,

At the Crises Pregnancy Center we had clients who felt it was our responsibility to support their babies with clothes, diapers because we were pro-life. They would get upset with us when we finally had to tell them "no". One girl went so far as to come for clean clothes for her child because she would never wash the ones we gave her! This is what we faced at the CPC.

Tough, is it not?

Sandra



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Sandra Miller

 2017/7/3 11:21Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7480
Mississippi

 Revelation 18:14 NASB

Revelation 18:14 NASB

14 “The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them.

COMMENT:

I find the concept shared here not limited to the destruction of Babylon but for all of life: the luxurious and splendid things will and do pass away with time. This reality stares at me hard, it is boring hard into my consciousness.

I used to buy things thinking my children would benefit from them eventually, or maybe my grands would. Not so. And then I wrestle with the idea of the value of collecting for its own sake. Is it wrong? This is an issue I grapple with.

In any case, whatever we acquire will pass away. Be burned up - eventually. Reminds me of a story a visiting preacher told us:

"They had in their church a skilled craftsman who did fine, excellent work with wood, most of it used in the building of houses. This preacher walked with him through a house one day that displayed his fine work and as they did so he just shook his head - "Yup, someday this will all burn up!"

Only what is done for Jesus will last. "How can I parlay my interests into serving the LORD with it" becomes an interesting dilemma.

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/7/3 11:36Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7480
Mississippi

  Revelation 20:4-6 NASB

Revelation 20:4-6 NASB

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

COMMENT:

This portion in Revelation has taught me so much: it has subdued the angst I experience when I read in the news about the beheading of Believers.

When I was a young woman 50 years ago, more or less, one rarely heard of beheadings: this was something you read about in history books, not something moderns did - it is too gruesome - moderns are more civilized, right? Today this method of execution has become the method of choice in the killing of Believers by the Muslims. How sadistic they must be! I remember helping mom butcher chickens when I was a child - the reaction of the bird's body after the head was cut off...does the human body respond like it, too? I suspect it does. If it does, I am convinced beyond the shadow of a doubt that people who promote and love this method of execution must be totally possessed by the devil, no two ways about it. If this is the case I can rejoice at the judgments God will mete out on those who work to destroy the Believers!

There is nothing, absolutely nothing that removes that angst of this procedure UNLESS it is the hope of eternal life that will follow after its completion. It is too gross for the natural mind to enjoy observing. If the human body reacts like a chickens' it would make me vomit to witness it...I promise.

The angel informs John the victims of beheadings are the ones who Jesus will resurrect and rule with him for a thousand years....AND! it labels them as being blessed! WOW! And the rest will not be resurrected until after the thousand years are completed. Well??!! You want to reign with Jesus for a thousand years? Have to be beheaded...going to stand in line for it?

As I consider the normal reaction to beheadings I can understand why Jesus would choose these victims to rule with him: he wants people who have the stamina to be decisive regardless of circumstances, who will not be swayed by whatever to do otherwise to rule with Him. Sounds simple to me, does it not to you?

But the angel calls these victims Blessed. How do you like that?

Since one has seen an acceleration of this procedure used in recent years in eliminating Christians from the area, I suspect Jesus is using the devil to populate the government he will set up when he returns to begin his thousand year reign.

I am glad all of this is under God's supervision and that all things will work together for good. Aren't you glad, too?

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/7/5 13:30Profile





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