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ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7480
Mississippi

 Re:


QUOTE:
"Q: Why did cause choose judgments that would not work? How sure are you that they were designed to provoke men to repentance? How does this square with Rom. 2:4?"

I checked out this verse and found these verses following:

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

Todd, I am sure you were aware of these verses. What comments do you have on them?

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/6/16 11:50Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7480
Mississippi

 Revelation 16:18 NASB

Revelation 16:18 NASB

18 And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty


As I ponder all the calamities as recorded here in Revelation that God will inflict upon mankind one is left with mixed emotions, thoughts, opinions. Is it possible?

Then.

Then I read about the swarm of earthquakes that are occurring in the Yellowstone National Park and the possibilities of a major eruption, the like man has not seen in years. Then....I wonder did those forecasters read Revelation? Now all these calamities do not seem so impossible....

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/6/20 18:06Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5526
NC, USA

 Re: Revelation 16:18 NASB

Quote: "Todd, I am sure you were aware of these verses. What comments do you have on them? "

You mentioned that you thought the harsh judgments were intended to bring men to repentance, but they did not repent. I am only raising the possibility that this was not the purpose of the judgments.

Jesus did not go around scourging people into repenting.


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Todd

 2017/6/20 21:22Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7480
Mississippi

 Re:

You are right - Jesus did not go around scourging people into repenting.

As I understand - from Bible history - God used afflictions to draw people back to him. The books of Judges, the Chronicles are filled with incidences of such. In Deuteronomy 28-30 God pronounces curses and blessing upon the Israelites based upon their love for Him. It can be argued - and rightly so - that that was OT and not NT. Yet we still see the country of Israel being desert and why is this so?

We live in tornado valley and close to the Gulf coast that experiences hurricanes. The people here say when things get bad weather-wise that God is judging us. Storms force people to think of God because they are faced with a power that is beyond man's control. The best think I can say about the deep south is that it still has a sense of God but it stops there. Holiness is not on most people's radar.

Why do you think God is inflicting severe judgments upon mankind as recorded in Revelation?

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/6/21 10:18Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7480
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 Revelation 17:1,2 NASB

Revelation 17:1,2 NASB

1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,

2 with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality.

It would be so interesting to delve into how one would interpret these bowls of wrath and other judgments as recorded in Revelation...and I see others are discussing this which I consider interesting. But am trying to stay focused on the spiritual lessons found in this book because many find the imagery used in this book intimidating.

As I look at these two verses I noticed the role immorality plays in the relationship of the kings with each other and it says they were drunk with the wine of her immorality. It this a mere metaphor or is it literal?

When I was at CPC it was told us that illicit sex is the most addictive "drug". I googled this concept before coming on here, wondering what the experts are saying today. Am not sure whether it is the most addictive drug but it IS addictive - literally. "Illicit sexual outlets trigger a literal chemical dependency in the brain."

Addiction controls people, supersedes the will, requires outside support to break free from its hold. So, the scripture that teaches us that these "kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality" is literally true. Illicit sex makes one drunk.

How long did it take moderns to realize, to understand the addictive nature of illicit sex? Yet, scripture told us this 2000 years ago - up-to-date, is it not?

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/6/21 10:35Profile
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 Re:

//Why do you think God is inflicting severe judgments upon mankind as recorded in Revelation?//

To punish them?


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Todd

 2017/6/21 11:43Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7480
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 Re:

QUOTE:
To punish them?


Yes.

To the unbeliever severe calamities are an punishment; to the Believer, chastisement, although one may be splitting hairs here. It seems as though the reactions are different to the same situation.

Someone has defined chastisement as a spanking God gives his children...don't like this but think it is true.

And then there are trials I do not consider chastisement. Not sure how one can differentiate between the two. In either case, the Believer is forced to throw himself upon the mercy of the LORD for His intervention. And the unBeliever - where does he go for a resolution?

What say?

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/6/22 10:55Profile
ginnyrose
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Posts: 7480
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 Revelation 17:3,18


Am posting the entire chapter so one can get the context for my comment.

Revelation 17
1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,

2 with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality.”

3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.

4 The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality,

5 and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”

6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.

7 And the angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.

8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,

10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.

11 “The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.

13“These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

14“These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

15 And he said to me, “The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.

16 “And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.

17 “For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.

18 “The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

This harlot - who is she? The description is so dire, one I would hate to be used to describe me or any of my friends, for sure. Incredibly wicked; she works in cahoots with the beast and his buddies. How can a woman do such a dastardly thing? Has she lost all sense of conscience?

Who is she? The angel interprets these images and describes her in verse eighteen as "The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.” Great city. Hmmm. What is the great city?

In Revelation we find this expression used in chapter 11:8: "And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified." According to this verse this "great city" is identified as Jerusalem. Is the whore as describes in chapter 17 Jerusalem?

Personally, I do not want to believe this whore is Jerusalem but my emotion has to take a back seat and allow the facts to teach me - I have to accept them even if I do not like it. I do not want Jerusalem to be the whore: it is populated by God's chosen people, the Jews. Are we not to bless them, still? If this is true, what should my attitude be towards the country of Israel? I do not want to think about it but am forced to.

Is Jerusalem really wicked? Will one say, yes, but not as bad as____________. They have persecuted Christians in the past and do limit Christians today. They want the approval of Christians because it provides them with political and economic stability. But here is Revelation 17. What should be the Believers attitude towards Israel?

Given this scripture I am left believing that I need to keep my distance emotionally about Israel politically. The things we see today - I do not think I have the insight to tell our politicians how to deal with Israel because the issues are so complex - leaves me feeling that I need to get out of God's way accepting what He will do now and in the future and keep a check on my opinions about what is going on.

It is hard to accept that God's people would have the ability to apostatize so badly, be so wicked as this scripture describes this whore. Yet, all one has to do is take a serious look at modern life. I have been told that people who have had the most profound impact upon fashion, philosophy, politics, arts, religion have their roots in Christianity and in a small part Judaism. When I consider this reality I then know that it is very possible that Jerusalem is very wicked because she has crucified the Savior and killed his followers which will leave one open to greater deception.

So, I stand back, watch and wonder and ponder.

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/6/22 11:29Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7480
Mississippi

 Revelation 17:17

Revelation 17:17 NASB

17 “For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.

Revelation 17 leaves me so perplexed, so sad - it does serious violence to my preconceived ideas of man's ability to do the right thing based on decency and logic. Life has proven man's ability to be horribly mean, cruel, completely lacking any common sense, decency - just plain ugly.

Then.

We see God is very much involved, allowing man to experience the end result of their rebellion - they ain't gonna win by a long shot. And...we need to know this when we feel so overwhelmed by the ugliness we are confronted with. This does bring comfort that God is using people, governments today to bring about his will, whatever that may be.

As I view God's ability to use ugliness to bring about beauty I am reminded of a friend of mine who is a professional fabric artist. In her sewing she will not discard any remnants because it just might be the color she needs to fashion a picture. The rest of us who sew will likely discard it. When I think of Julia I think of God using the impossible to create beauty.

You know what? the more I study Revelation the more I am convinced there is an era of time coming in which we know so little about even though the Bible's prophecies warn, talk about it, we have difficulty putting it all together. Then my mind goes to the OT era in which people had difficulty understanding the prophecies concerning Jesus coming. And...I understand them, their questions, their doubts. In spite of the questions God went ahead with his plan and comprehension came later. So it will be for us.

Yes! God is in control. Just like he did when he hardened Pharaoh's heart....

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/6/23 12:06Profile
amajesticone
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Joined: 2016/3/10
Posts: 43
Massachusetts

 God Is Love Even In His Wrath

Sandra,

You make me want to reread Revelation again! The promise of blessing to the reader is true.

Here are a few things that have "blessed" and adjusted me in the reading.

1. In the present and permeating false teaching of "love and tolerance," I saw in Revelation 2:20 that our Lord Jesus was intolerant. "But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel...she teaches and leads My bondservants astray...."

2. In Revelation 13:10 "Here is the perseverance and faith of the saints" as all who dwell upon the earth and whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life are worshipping the beast, and it is given to him to make war with the saints and overcome them.

In Revelation 14:12 "Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" as the hour of His judgment has come upon the worshippers of the beast and reception of his mark.
In these two scriptures I see the saints here during this time, along with the one you mentioned that is tucked in Revelation 16:15.

The greatest seeing for me has been the seeing of God's love FOR HIS SAINTS is in (behind, His motivation) His wrath. Revelation 16 the wrath of God is being poured out upon the men who had the mark and worshipped the beast. "I heard the angel of the waters say "Righteous art Thou, who art and who wast. O Holy One, because Thous didn't judge these things; for...FOR...they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and Thou hast given them blood to drink. They deserve it. And I heard the altar saying, "Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Thy judgments."

And in Revelation 17:6 "And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and the blood of the witnesses of Jesus." Then in Revelation 18:20 after the judgment of Babylon, "Rejoice over her, O heaven, AND YOU SAINTS AND APOSTLES AND PROPHETS because...BECAUSE...God has pronounced judgment FOR YOU against her." FOR YOU!!
And then in Revelation 19, "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BONDSERVANTS ON HER." And Hallelujahs and worship continue "for the Lord our God, the Almighty reigns!" It is His love for His saints behind His wrath!! He is always LOVE even in His wrath!

We know God's love is not humanism.

In Christ,
Mary








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Mary

 2017/6/24 8:21Profile





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