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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is Galatians 2:20 a promise or experience?

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passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 742


 Re:

What is through the flesh?

A. Samuel 15

17 And Samuel said, When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the Lord anointed thee king over Israel?

18 And the Lord sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.

19 Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the Lord, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the Lord?

20 And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the Lord, and have gone the way which the Lord sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites.

21 But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the Lord thy God in Gilgal.

22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

B. 2 Chronicles 26:15-16

"15 And he (King Uzziah) made devices in Jerusalem, invented by skillful men, to be on the towers and the corners, to shoot arrows and large stones. So his fame spread far and wide, for he was marvelously helped till he became strong.

16 But when he was strong his heart was lifted up, to his destruction"

C. Psalm 147:10

He does not delight in the strength of the horse; He takes no pleasure in the legs of a man.

D: Jeremiah 17:5

Thus says the LORD: "Cursed is the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the LORD.”

E. Hosea 10:12-13

"Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the Lord, till he come and rain righteousness upon you. Ye have plowed wickedness, ye have reaped iniquity; ye have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way, in the multitude of thy mighty men."

F. Matthew 7:22–23

"Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

G. 1 Corinthians 10:12

Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

H. Matt 23:37-39

"37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

That is having it our way, in our disobedience, our pride, our folly, our rebelliousness, our lawlessness, our unbelief, having no fear in God.

 2017/2/24 5:49Profile
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 742


 Re:

Real faith requires our obedience, action, and effort.

James 2:26: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Deut 6:4-5: "Hear, O Israel, The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might."

 2017/2/24 6:25Profile
StirItUp
Member



Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 949
Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re: passerby

Hey Passerby,

So often we seem to be disagreeing when we are simply describing different sides of the same coin.

You say: "Real faith requires our obedience, action, and effort."

Does the gospel not call us to the obedience of faith? I.O.W. To obey God is to believe in His Son Jesus Christ.
This then, is the foundation of all subsequent "good works"

Our faith in Jesus leads to the truth of the Original Post scripture: No longer I but Christ.
Christ in me is the spring from which flows forth every good work.

"This is the work of God, that you believe in the One Whom He sent"

Paul puts it this way: Faith working through love. So God loved us first, we believed and received His love in the Lord Jesus Christ and now His love in us is enabling us to do good to all men.

Blessings,


_________________
William

 2017/2/24 8:07Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re:

I see 2 extremes in the understanding of Gal 2:20.

The first extreme is - "You are already dead and Christ is living inside you".

The only person dead is the old man. But the flesh along with its passions are still alive. It has to be crucified everyday (Galatians 5:24). One has to die everyday (Luke 9:23), taking up his cross to deny his will and do the will of God. Now without this death there is no resurrection. Those who claim about the resurrected Jesus living inside us, safely ignore all the verses related to everyday death. Hence I find this is not complete truth. Posters like "ChristInYou", fall into this extreme.

The other extreme which is not found in this forum, but I have seen is, people who talk only about death and not resurrection. They believe in death to self and everyday carrying the cross, but they miss the Christ living inside us part. Hence their Christianity becomes self effort. Death alone cannot produce life. 1 John 5:12 is very clear, "He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.". We will have life only when we have Jesus living inside us. Just dying to self does not produce life by itself.

Many times, people like me who proclaim the full Gospel, which is a balance of both the extremes, people think that I belong to the self effort extreme. But it is not so. I believe, we need to die everyday, carry the cross and also have the resurrected Jesus living inside us. It is everyday death of Paul's self that lead to Gal 2:20.


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Sreeram

 2017/2/24 12:54Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Hi sree;

The extreme of being in Christ and Christ being in us is what Paul preached His whole ministry, from the three years in Sinai being taught about this new Gospel, which Paul claims as "My Gospel", taught not by man or anyone else, but by Jesus Christ; the epitome of Gal 2:20.

By the Christ in me I can now die daily in the crucifixion of Christ, because I was hanging on the Cross with Him, that is by Faith I believe The Lord Jesus Christ' death was my death, in that being born again by the birth of Jesus Christ in me by the Father sealed by the Holy Spirit who now lives in me by the power of the prayer of Jesus Christ to send the Comforter to teach this mystery claimed by Paul, now the life I live I live by the faith of the Son of God. By this glorious hope that is in us, NOW I can deal with and not as you wrote; ""ignore all the verses related to everyday death. Hence I find this is not complete truth. Posters like "ChristInYou, fall into this extreme."" I know labor and striving every day to die now to self and live unto God by the Spirit of Jesus Christ that is now my spirit, the spirit of satan out and the Spirit of Christ in me. You sree wrote: "like "ChristInYou", fall into this extreme."

The extreme I lobor and strive for is by Paul spoken of as the mystery. Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is my labour and striving according to His working, which worketh in me mightily. This may be extreme, but I follow Paul as he follows Christ. Christ in you the hope of glory is my extreme and striving to die daily to self and live in the only life that is life eternal, which is Christ Life.

"The life I now live, I live by the faith of the Son of God."

In Christ my eternal life by He that is birthed in me:
"The fulfillment of the Word of God."

Phillip


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Phillip

 2017/2/24 14:07Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re:

Quote:

I know labor and striving every day to die now to self and live unto God by the Spirit of Jesus Christ that is now my spirit, the spirit of satan out and the Spirit of Christ in me.



If this is your belief then I do not believe it is an extreme as indicated by me. I am not against order, I believe death to self leads to 'Christ in me' and you the other way. Whether we agree with one another or not, scripture talks about both death and life. Hence one needs to talk about both, not just one. A one winged bird cannot fly, so if we hold on to just one part of truth, we will not be able to live a Christian life.

The problem with making the death to self an implicit thing that happens automatically is, we start to ignore it in our teachings. Man's part is very simple, to die everyday. It is God's part to produce Christ inside us. It is like a grain of wheat, that has to die, but it is God who causes it to grow. I have hardly read any of your posts, talking about this everyday death. God never fails anyone, it is we who fail God because of our stubborn heart.

Both Jesus and Paul spoke more about death to self than Christ in us. It is the death to self that is lacking in most Christians today.


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Sreeram

 2017/2/24 16:26Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Being in Christ and Christ being in us, count how many time it refers to the in Christ or Christ in us just in these few verses. There are 160 times it is referenced in the New Testament. Over 90% are in Paul' writings. Here are just a few.

Ro 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ro 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Ro 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Ro 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Ro 8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Ro 8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Ro 8:39
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Ro 9:1
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost.




This settles it for me; You probably won't read all these scriptures and that is ok by me. I am just blessed to know you and your position of Christ in you the hope of glory.

Ro 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Ro 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ro 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Ro 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Ro 6:8
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Ro 6:9
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Ro 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ro 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ro 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Ro 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Ro 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ro 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Ro 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Ro 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Ro 8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Ro 8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Ro 8:39
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Ro 9:1
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost.

By Paul of whom I agree most hole heartily and by the Holy Spirit teaching of the Christ in us.

In Him: Phillip


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Phillip

 2017/2/24 23:22Profile
StirItUp
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Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 949
Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re: Brothers and sisters

Dear brothers,
Please bear with me and read this post slowly and patiently, if possible:

To go back to the OP, we can all agree that the overriding theme of Galatians is the Righteousness of faith as opposed to the righteousness that comes through the works of the Law. I.O.W. Paul is demonstrating the inability of our old man (self) to achieve the obedience required by the Law to make us righteous, compared to the perfect obedience of Christ Jesus and the righteousness given to us as a gift through faith in Him (dependence upon Him and His righteousness)

He goes on to ask whether they received the Holy Spirit, Who is the power of God within us enabling us to live according to God’s will, by the works of the Law or the hearing of faith. (Obviously, by the hearing of faith: Hearing and believing the good news of Jesus Christ)
He then moves on to say: In Christ, circumcision or uncircumcision (requirements of the Law) matters not BUT rather: Faith working through love.

Then he calls on them to practice LOVE…for LOVE is the fulfillment of the LAW. The whole Law can be summed up in one commandment: Love your neighbor as yourself.

I believe Paul’s next statement sums up the self denying, cross carrying (terms used by Jesus BEFORE the cross and resurrection) life.
Galatians 5 verse 16:” But I say, live by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desires of the flesh”

He then contrasts the works of the flesh (human nature without Christ) and the fruit of the spirit (the human nature indwelt by God’s spirit, born again person)

Galatians 5 verse 24, notice the tense: “ now those who belong to Christ, HAVE crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Verse 25: “if we live by the Spirit let us walk by the Spirit” or stated differently, “if we are born again, Spirit indwelt people, let our behavior reflect the same”

Summary: Faith in Jesus Christ puts us right with God. His love is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit coming to indwell us. We now live in dependence upon this Spirit and live our lives in LOVE.

Blessings


_________________
William

 2017/2/25 2:56Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

I like your summary William ---this phrase at the end caught my eye: "We now ****live in dependence*** upon this Spirit." I agree with this statement.

In your view, HOW do we "live in dependence?"


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Todd

 2017/2/25 8:27Profile
StirItUp
Member



Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 949
Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re: Brother Todd

Thanks bro Todd,

Dependence always reminds me of childlikeness.
Looking to the Lord,Who is the Spirit, in and for everything. Expecting nothing good from your self
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding "
First of all it is a yielding,a surrender of the will,handing over the reigns to Him.
"Set apart Christ as Lord in your hearts "
It is a lifestyle that includes confession, humility, prayer and thanksgiving.


_________________
William

 2017/2/25 10:52Profile





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