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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : "It is not your hold of Christ that saves you; it is His hold of you."

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StirItUp
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Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 941
Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re:

...is that faith perhaps what Paul wrote in Romans 10?

Believe with the heart and confess with the mouth?

...as we began so we must continue and so we will finish our race as Paul did:... I have kept the faith...

Continue in Him by believing in the heart ( leaning our entire personality on Him in surrendered trust) and holding fast the good confession ( profession)

God bless,


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William

 2016/10/11 16:52Profile
forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: Faith and grace...

Amen, living and abiding faith is of God, I do believe. It is of His grace, **which He gives to the humble.**

I don't think I said "it is by faith that we hold fast"...but it seems true enough, nonetheless...

To the question of whether faith is "the product of natural carnal man" - if Moses taught us anything, it is that it most definitely is not.

As to trying to arrive at a systematic conclusion as to how one "holds fast", I dare not try...

I know that godliness is indeed a mystery. It has indeed been revealed in general and to an extent - but much of it is the mysterious working of God deep down in the heart of man. I dare not try to formalize it.

But I do know that God commands us time and again to "hold fast" and if you (brothagary) are implying that a clear command of scripture is not something that God truly expects me to do (through faith/Christ, of course), then you have a far greater mystery on your hands than do I: why would God even tell us to do something that He doesn't truly expect us to do...or, at least, something that we have no part in whatsoever and is completely all God's duty and responsibility and doing?

God says in His word: "Hold fast", I say to the child of God, "Hold Fast". Jesus says "abide in Me", I say "Abide in Him"...

Paul said:

"...I discipline my body and make it my slave..."

And God through the apostle tells us to:

"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us **cleanse ourselves** from all defilement of flesh and spirit, **perfecting holiness in the fear of God.**"

I know it is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from all unrighteousness - but there must be some part of it's being applied to me that is incumbent on me in this process in order for God to tell me to "cleanse" myself.

There are many, many, such verses. In fact, it's hard to understand Jesus and His words in the gospels if we remove our responsibility to cooperate with God and our duty to Him...

...but we are wading into very old and often messy and contentious debate that I am sure will not be solved here and now anyhow.


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~ Forrest

 2016/10/11 17:00Profile
forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re:

Quote:
by savannah on 2016/10/11 13:48:48


...it is 100% God's Grace. If it were any less than 100% His Grace it would cease to be Grace.



Amen, Savannah, no one is claiming that we are saved by merit or wages...it is surely grace. It is more the issue of whether God's grace is irresistible or not - or whether it is conditioned on anything in the person (such as humility?) and whether we are called and commanded to work out our own salvation in fear and trembling and whether holding fast is a command of scripture and something that is our duty to do.

Quote:
by savannah on 2016/10/11 13:48:48


Read verse 40 again...

Verse 40

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.



My question for you, Savannah, is this: "Is the context in this passage the whole nation or the individual person?"

It is my understanding that Christ was given as the everlasting covenant (Isaiah 42:6 and 49:8)...and He told His disciples to abide in Him and explained the consequences of failing to do so...it had to do with being "cut off" and "thrown into the fire" and "burned"...

The Church, corporately, is called "a holy nation" and "a royal priesthood":

"Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”
~ Exodus 19:5-6

"But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy."
~ 1 Peter 2:9-10

And as Peter indicated in saying "who were not a people, but are now the people of God", that the church is the nation that the kingdom of God was given to when it was taken away from Israel according to the flesh.

"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it."
~ The Lord Jesus; Matthew 21:43

And why didn't it previously bear fruit? Was it God's doing or some deficiency on their part?

***********

My Well-beloved has a vineyard
On a very fruitful hill.

He dug it up and cleared out its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
He built a tower in its midst,
And also made a winepress in it;
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.

“And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.

What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?

And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.

I will lay it waste;
It shall not be pruned or dug,
But there shall come up briers and thorns.
I will also command the clouds
That they rain no rain on it.”

For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.

~ Isaiah 5:1b-7


_________________
~ Forrest

 2016/10/11 17:17Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1991


 Re: 100% from beginning to end


100% from beginning to end -

I emphasize 100% because of what is written below;

"It seems that some believe that it is 100% a work of God and that man and his will and willingness have absolutely no place or duty in permitting the grace of God to come in and cooperate (or "work together") with it..."


Permitting the grace of God? Cooperate?

This is called synergism, the doctrine of Romanism!

I submit to you, the testimony of George Mueller;

I had been much opposed to the doctrines of election, particular redemption, and final persevering grace; so much so that, a few days after my arrival at Teignmouth I called election a devilish doctrine. I did not believe that I had brought myself to the Lord, for that was too manifestly false; but yet I held, that I might have resisted finally.


And further, I knew nothing about the choice of God's people, and did not believe that the child of God, when once made so, was safe for ever. In my fleshly mind I had repeatedly said, "If once I could prove that I am a child of God for ever, I might go back into the world for a year or two, and then return to the Lord, and at last be saved."

But now I was brought to examine these precious truths by the word of God. Being made willing to have no glory of my own in the conversion of sinners, but to consider myself merely as an instrument; and being made willing to receive what the Scriptures said; I went to the Lord, reading the New Testament from the beginning, with a particular reference to these truths. To my great astonishment I found that the passages which speak decidedly for election and persevering grace were about four times as many as those which speak apparently against these truths; and even those few, shortly after, when I had examined and understood them, served to confirm me in the above doctrines.

As to the effect which my belief in these doctrines had on me, I am constrained to state, for God's glory, that though I am still exceedingly weak, and by no means so dead to the lusts of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, as I might and as I ought to be, yet, by the grace of God, I have walked more closely with Him since that period.

My life has not been so variable, and I may say that I have lived much more for God than before. And for this have I been strengthened by the Lord, in a great measure, through the instrumentality of these truths. For in the time of temptation, I have been repeatedly led to say: "Should I thus sin? I should only bring misery into my soul for a time, and dishonour God; for, being a son of God for ever, I should have to be brought back again, though it might be in the way of severe chastisement."

Thus, I say, the electing love of God in Christ (when I have been able to realize it) has often been the means of producing holiness, instead of leading me into sin. It is only the notional apprehension of such truths, the want of having them in the heart, whilst they are in the head, which is dangerous."


 2016/10/11 17:50Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
Ca.

 Re:

Will this statement be void? "They will hear it"


Acts 28:24-28 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Who is speaking? The that salvation is sent to, gentiles, then they must hear and understand, seeing they see, their heart is not gross, but understanding that they might be converted and who is going to heal them? Who is the "I" in this passage?

It looks like where ever the Gospel is sent that God must prepare the way and by truth that cannot lie, It is sent to those God has prepared to hear and see and understand with the heart, unto salvation.

Man by the faith of Christ can believe with the heart and be saved. With out this rebirth, man cannot see the things of God.

So who is responsible for me to see, hear and the heart be converted? Then and only then; Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Who is making this mystery known? Warning every man?
Teaching every man? Who has been made our wisdom? Who is prefect in Christ? Who now can labour, striving according to His working in us and His mighty power? We must be to those to whom the Mystery is revealed in the riches of the glory of this mystery,

"which is Christ in you the hope of glory" which without there is nothing, no seeing, no hearing, no understanding, no works for the kingdom, nothing.

Everything In Christ our only Hope of Glory.

In Him who is of the Power:

Phillip


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Phillip

 2016/10/11 18:09Profile
forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: Savannah

Quote:
by savannah on 2016/10/11 14:50:57


100% from beginning to end -

I emphasize 100% because of what is written below;

"It seems that some believe that it is 100% a work of God and that man and his will and willingness have absolutely no place or duty in permitting the grace of God to come in and cooperate (or "work together") with it..."


Permitting the grace of God? Cooperate?

This is called synergism, the doctrine of Romanism!



You didn't answer my question to you...

And honestly, I care very little what a man says if it does not accord with the word of God...

We are discussing scripture here, or so I thought.

You also didn't even touch any of the points I made or passages I shared below... :(

Well, I am not tasked with changing your mind - just to abide in Christ and to speak the truth in love and seek to build up the body of Christ (among many other things, such as building myself up on my most holy faith and keep myself in the love of God) - and that is what I am here to do.

If you are unwilling to deal with me as a brother and have a humble, two-way discussion...then there is nothing I can do from here...


_________________
~ Forrest

 2016/10/11 18:40Profile
forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: Christinyou

Christinyou,

Who is responsible for unfruitfulness in the below passage? And what seems to be God's intention and will in it all? That they be fruitful or unfruitful? (See also John 15:8)

***************************************

My Well-beloved has a vineyard
On a very fruitful hill.

He dug it up and cleared out its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
He built a tower in its midst,
And also made a winepress in it;
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.

“And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.

What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?

And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.

I will lay it waste;
It shall not be pruned or dug,
But there shall come up briers and thorns.
I will also command the clouds
That they rain no rain on it.”

For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.

~ Isaiah 5:1b-7


_________________
~ Forrest

 2016/10/11 18:43Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1991


 Re: Romans has your answer





My question for you, Savannah, is this: "Is the context in this passage the whole nation or the individual person?"

The context is the everlasting covenant He will make with His people.

He promised to save His people from their sins.

Not pre-conditioned upon any humility in them, or some other virtue he saw in them, and consequently adopting them into His Family.

Not every member of the nation of Israel was of the faith of Abraham. He knows them that are His. He knows them by name.

Within nations are individual persons. And so also is His body made up of many members. If we be in Him, it is His doing, as Scripture declares.

Romans here in chapter 8, as well as many other passages, is very personal.

And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first-born among many brethren. Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

What shall we then say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who will lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, or rather that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

But in all these things we are more than conquerors, through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor hight, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 2016/10/11 19:24Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: """by forrests on 2016/10/11 15:43:52

Christinyou,

Who is responsible for unfruitfulness in the below passage? And what seems to be God's intention and will in it all? That they be fruitful or unfruitful? (See also John 15:8)"""


Gods intention was in His blessings they would be fruitful, but they could not. That is why God: 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

That no matter how much blessing God bestows on man, He cannot, will not and doesn't even want to please God, only his own pleasures.

No fruit in the vineyard is the proof that all that are saved need Jesus Christ as the only redemption that will give entrance into Gods House.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2016/10/12 4:41Profile









  why would God even tell us to do something that He doesn't truly expect us to do.

Forrests - I think you should rethink your position.

Why did God give the law?
Did God really expect it to be kept?
If a person Truly kept the law would it save him?

Can the law cleanse the heart?

Can the law make anyone holy and righteous?
Can the law save anyone?

Please answer these questions.

 2016/10/12 5:48





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