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forrests
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Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re:

Quote:
by MrBillPro on 2016/8/24 10:22:47

After reading this thread I'm afraid to even go outside, some kid might kick a football into the streets, and well there goes my mind focusing on something beside, the word and prayer. Could someone please start a thread on what us imperfect Christians might be allowed to do under grace?



Brother, it seems/feels like you are mis-characterizing what I am saying... I also sense a bit of vitriolic sarcasm in your comment. Am I wrong in this?


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~ Forrest

 2016/8/24 13:30Profile
MrBillPro
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Posts: 3286
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 Re:

Quote:
forrests Brother, it seems/feels like you are mis-characterizing what I am saying... I also sense a bit of vitriolic sarcasm in your comment. Am I wrong in this?


I just read in a earlier post of yours, where you said TV was a vain amusement. I'm not being sarcastic at all, I'm sincere on a starting a thread that can guide us,maybe a list, on just what passes the smell test of a good Christian. From what I've read the list can't be very long, should be a very easy thing to do.


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Bill

 2016/8/24 13:49Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5503
NC, USA

 Re: Andy griffith

Uhh- Forrest- I was talking about Travis being a man after my own heart because he likes the Andy Griffith show- it's just a figure of speech. That show is possibly the most innocent show ever created.

Of course my wife, who knew Andy when he lived in Manteo NC said he was a jerk in real life.


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Todd

 2016/8/24 14:06Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by PaulWest on 2016/8/24 13:27:03

The term "vain" is wholly subjective. Who determines what is a vain amusement? A preacher? A counsellor? Only the Holy Spirit can determine and communicate what is in fact vain and what is not to the inner man. Rest and relaxation is integral to a person's physical well-being and mental fortitude, and how a believer is permitted to relax and rejuvenate by the Holy Spirit is between them and Lord. It is nobody's business to draft a list or determine for another what is vain and what is not.

This is why Christ taught that we should refrain from making judgements based upon exterior observations, but judge according to righteousness. Since our righteousness is of Christ, and not of our own distinguishing, we must adopt His mindset -- which is to judge no man or woman according to the flesh. It is the religious who habitually judge according to appearance, as when the Son of God was judged to be a drunkard and glutton based upon exterior observation. Or the Pharisee judging the prostitute's motive who dare touch the feet of Jesus in the flesh. We only see the tip of the ice above the surface, but God alone knows the 99.9 percent hidden reality.



I was thinking the same thing. If there is someone who can define all the things which are vain, then we should walk according to that rather than according to the Spirit. Thus, we are back to rules, regulations and legalism to establish our right-ness (righteousness).

 2016/8/24 14:37
dolfan
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Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1632
Alabama

 Re: Andy Griffith

I've heard Andy Griffith was reputed to be a not-nice man off screen, too.

The Andy Griffith Show got sideways after Don Knotts left. I never watch the in-color episodes, you know the ones with Howard Sprague and the replacement deputy. The Andy Taylor character got too self-important. You know, MASH did the same thing the longer it was on the air. Alan Alda and Mike Farrell got totally self-consumed in the stories. All sage, wisened figures who went from being funny and likable to being obnoxious. More of the actors' own selves came through the characters as the storylines got worn out.

So, yeah, I have no problem believing Andy Griffith was not a really nice personality. He sure did a bang-up job in No Time for Sergeants and A Face In The Crowd, though. And, if you follow the track of the Taylor character over the life of the Andy Griffith show, he went from being LIKE the No Time For Sergeants character to being a little more like his character in A Face In The Crowd. That's my own opinion anyway.

I do still like to listen to "What It Was Was Football." :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xus57BaY3hI


Hope that wasn't overly vain and worldly. :D


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Tim

 2016/8/24 14:51Profile
forrests
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Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re:

Quote:
The term "vain" is wholly subjective.



I disagree, it is clear and definitive in it's definition. It may be subjective in it's application...which leads to your question..

Quote:
Who determines what is a vain amusement?



The Lord does, of course. And I believe that He has already revealed that amusement (as defined previously by me in this thread) is, in itself, vain.

Quote:
Only the Holy Spirit can determine and communicate what is in fact vain and what is not...



Amen, and I believe He largely has already in His word...

Quote:
...to the inner man.



Not everything needs to be so subjective and personal. In my eyes, that seems to border on a type of "spiritual enthusiasm" and seems a bit like post-modern subjectivity...a veering from the objective and universal nature of Truth toward a more "personal truth" and a general and definitive revelation of God's will and mind on certain matters to an "inward" one to each individual.

I agree that God reveals truth to us by revelation, but it is the same exact truth He has already revealed in His word, and it is the same truth that He has for all of mankind. It is just a deeper/clearer understanding of it and truly grasping of it with the heart and being conformed to it as a result. I believe in this, but this doesn't necessitate such subjectivity. Just because God may not yet have revealed some aspect of Truth to any particular person (or may not have been able to), this is not a grounds to not speak and declare it to them if He has revealed to you in some measure. Truth is universal and objective and absolute...it seems to me that your idea of it (Him) is far more subjective than the word of God reveals it is.

Also, the heavy emphasis on "the inner man" is a bit worrisome. I understand the scripture makes mention of an "inner man" and an "inward man", but given the way the scripture uses it compared to what it seems you may mean by it...something seems noteworthy, to say the least.

I don't believe that Jesus or Paul or the other apostles would excuse a man for not submitting to clear scripture that he has only yet received with his "outer man" by reading it, and has yet to have a special divine revelation from the Spirit of God to his "inner man"...

If the scripture tells us to "redeem the time", we are to do it. If the scripture tells us that God desires a people "zealous for good works" - He means it and expects it. If the scripture exhorts us to "flee youthful lusts" and not to "love the world or the things of the world" and warns the "the lust of the flesh" is not from the Father but from the world...it is imperative that we humbly accept and submit to this truth and seek the grace and power (and revelation) of God to walk in it.

But to say, "I disagree with that, or what exactly it means (in relation to me), because I have not yet had a special revelation of it from the Spirit to my inner man," is perilous! I understand God having mercy on us because of our ignorance of the truth - but our rejection of, or to say the least, our avoiding it, on account of some lack of some special, direct and deep revelation of it (once we are already believers) seems to me to be noting other than rebellion to it cloaked in fairer terms.

To say: "I see what God is saying and I want to walk in it, but I am not sure how just yet" is a far cry from "I see what it is objectively saying, but I'm not sure how it applies to me yet due to a lack of personal revelation, so I am largely going to disregard it for now...until God shows me what it means." If we don't receive the general revelation through His prophets and apostles, can we really expect a deeper and more personal one? I believe it is the humility that examines what is said, senses the truth of it in their spirit, feels the weight of necessity of it, being bound to it, and thus receives the truth on this level and then seeks a deeper understanding and the grace needed to live the word he has received, that receives the deeper and more personal revelation of Jesus Christ to his spirit by the Spirit of God.

Quote:
Rest and relaxation is integral to a person's physical wellbeing and mental fortitude...



Amen, but we are not discussing rest. We are discussing amusement. Perhaps I like to get drunk while I rest...who are you to judge - I need my rest! I know this is a bit of an exaggeration, drunkenness is clearly sin while TV may be a bit more obscure, but I intentionally do that to illustrate a point. Rest is rest. We are not discussing rest, in itself, right now - but amusement and entertainment.

Quote:
...and how a believer is permitted to relax and rejuvenate...is between them and Lord.



This sounds a bit like a "Christian" form of "do what thou wilt" and "Am I my brother's keeper?" True, we have a personal relationship and we are personally accountable for our behavior, but there is also the reality that we are "members of one another" and we are to "edify the body in love"... And God even holds some accountable for the well being of others (say, in the case of a watchman or a teacher).

This is a type of individualism and "liberty" that is not found in God's word...not in terms of a brother's well being and in relation to things that are "good" or "evil" for the brother and addressed in the word of God.

If your position were universally true, where would the need for pastors and teachers be? Or prophets? That is the job of an elder brother, to use his wisdom and revelation to help be another set of eyes for his brother. It should be the desire of a truly born again believer to seek to glorify God with their bodies, and to offer their bodies to God as a living sacrifice (for it is clearly their duty) - and if this desire is in them, they should welcome the other members of Christ's body that help complete them where they are lacking. We are all just a part. If the whole body were an eye... Well, if you are independent of the body, your whole body may be an eye...and you need ears and hands and a nose.. We are to lean on and help one another.

Quote:
...by the Holy Spirit...



I'm not too sure the Holy Spirit is going to sit with you through a lot of unholy vanity (such as what comes through the TV). He is holy, and seeks to make us holy. I doubt that He often gives rest to a person through TV. Spiritual rejuvenation, sure. Sleep, no doubt. Some literature, I would guess so. Family time, definitely. Vacation even, sure - I can see that too... All in their place and according to His will.

But consuming things that are "of the world" and not "of the Father" is warned about in scripture. And I have a hard time believing that the same Holy Spirit that inspired John to warn us about the "things of the world" and teach us that they are "not of the Father", would then turn and use these same things to edify and strengthen us...

Quote:
This is why Christ taught that we should refrain from making judgements based upon exterior observations, but judge according to righteousness.



Judgement that righteously look deeper than first appearance, sure - but a judgement that is void of considering the outward/exterior observations? No. This is "super-spiritual" and not scriptural. Jesus and the apostles instruct us to judge things by appearance at times. The appearance is most often a manifestation of the unseen things within.

Quote:
...judge no man or woman according to the flesh in what we think are vain amusements.



"Judge" as in condemn? Absolutely not. But I am to "judge" in the sense of "discern." Otherwise how can I see him wandering (slightly veering from the truth) if I never "judge" him?

What place is there for preaching/teaching or warning or rebuking or exhorting or anything if everything is as subjective and personal as you seem to assert?

Quote:
It is the religious who habitually judge according to appearance...



Sure. I am not advocating ever judging unrighteously, much less habitually. They Pharisee was holding people to man-made traditions as if they were binding, and even nullifying scripture through it. They were also inwardly corrupt themselves and were "judging" in the sense of "condemning" - which I am not, nor am I advocating.

I wouldn't see a brother drinking a beer and call him a drunkard. That would be "judging by appearance" and to judge unrighteously. That is what the Pharisees were apparently doing. I may inquire of him how much or how often he drinks (if I know him and have a ministry opportunity through a love-relationship) and caution him to be wise and self-restrained and avoid drunkenness at all costs (if need be).

Perhaps you are "judging by appearance" when you assume I am saying something I am not?


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~ Forrest

 2016/8/24 15:12Profile
forrests
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Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: Bill

Quote:
by MrBillPro on 2016/8/24 10:49:19

Quote:
forrests Brother, it seems/feels like you are mis-characterizing what I am saying... I also sense a bit of vitriolic sarcasm in your comment. Am I wrong in this?


I just read in a earlier post of yours, where you said TV was a vain amusement. I'm not being sarcastic at all, I'm sincere on a starting a thread that can guide us,maybe a list, on just what passes the smell test of a good Christian. From what I've read the list can't be very long, should be a very easy thing to do.



You didn't answer my concern that you were mis-characterizing me.

Are you sure the part about seeing a kid kick a football wasn't vitriolic sarcasm?

Do you suppose that because you perceive that I am wrong about something that your sarcasm (if indeed you did use it) is warranted and justified? Is that why you decided not to answer?

Your wanting to make a list (if that is indeed not sarcasm as you say, and isn't intended to shame and humiliate me, as I suspect) sounds more like legalism and making rules than anything I have said or shared that other men of God have said. I am not dealing with specific things, but a condition in the heart manifesting itself through different "things".


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~ Forrest

 2016/8/24 15:19Profile
forrests
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Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: Julius21

Quote:
If there is someone who can define all the things which are vain, then we should walk according to that rather than according to the Spirit. Thus, we are back to rules, regulations and legalism to establish our right-ness (righteousness).



I did not advocate this. I merely pointed to the (Holy Spirit inspired) scripture (and past preachers) to make the case that God does consider amusement vain. That is all.

[Gosh, don't tear me to pieces, guys! I wonder if you would have dealt with Spurgeoun, Tozer, Ravenhill, D.A. Carson or the others like this...?]


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~ Forrest

 2016/8/24 15:30Profile
forrests
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Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: Taunting?

Quote:
Hope that wasn't overly vain and worldly. :D



Have you resorted to purposefully taunting? What if that does in fact offend my (weak) conscience? I guess you may feel justified because you have knowledge and a strong conscience...


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~ Forrest

 2016/8/24 15:33Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1632
Alabama

 Re:

Quote:
Quote:
Hope that wasn't overly vain and worldly. :D



Have you resorted to purposefully taunting? What if that does in fact offend my (weak) conscience? I guess you may feel justified because you have knowledge and a strong conscience...



;)


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Tim

 2016/8/24 15:56Profile





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