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proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936
| | Re: | | RE : ///Brother McGee makes the statement that a Christian who partakes of alcohol is ruining their testimony. I'd be inclined to agree with this.///
The Scripture is clear that Jesus did drink alcoholic Wine, The question is why ?
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 2016/8/11 17:49 | Profile |
sermonindex
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Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada
Online! | | Re: | | Quote:
A very KEY statement: Do not let another man rule over your conscience.
Of course any man-made commandments and rules should not rule over believers as we must hear the Holy Spirit and also obey God's clear words. That is my point that there is so much warning and clear Scriptures against mis-use of wine and warns against "strong drink" which is different then the "mixed-wine".
We also have brethren using Jesus turning water to wine (mixed) and other references to encourage liberty of drinking modern wine which is much different then in Bible Times.
Making this distinction is not wrong but wisdom as we are living in a different part of the world and also in a different time. Though some saints can differ with John MacArthur, I found many clear statements and Bible verses shared in this message that will benefit believers
Christians and Alcohol (Selected Scriptures) John MacArthur
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thXe-rtpl6U
I have no peace to encourage saints to drink "strong drink" which is the modern wines and beers in social settings. I believe a mixed-wine could be ok to drink with meals at times if this is part of someone's practice and importantly culture. I just do not see a parellel with modern america and modern liquor and beer companies.
Also during passover nothing of "leaven" was allowed and therefore no fermented grape juice ie wine.
I am not saying it is evil or sinful to drink "wine" (mixed) in the Bible times. I would say it is dangerous to be 100% liberty to drink all types of strong drinks in our day. We are enjoying what is the social ill of our day and rubbing shoulders with those addicted and destroyed by this element.
Maybe next time a "saint" goes to a liquor store or beer store they should evangelize those fellow patrons who are on the path of drunkenness and lack of knowing God.
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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| 2016/8/11 17:51 | Profile |
proudpapa
Member
Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936
| | Re: | | Wilkerson wrote : /// the more I am convinced Jesus did not mock that crowd at Canaan's wedding feast with the same stuff that is destroying our youth today.///
'It appears to me that' the Scripture actually indicates that those at the wedding where already intoxicated before Jesus turned the water to Wine.
edit add : 'It appears to me that' |
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| 2016/8/11 18:09 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Before I watch J Vernon Mghee (who I used to listen to on the way work), I'll say I have disagree with him more than once before |
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| 2016/8/11 19:30 | |
| | Re: | | And Bear,
Piper isn't talking specifically about occasionally having a drink. He does however specifically address that issue. I think I mentioned that already. Otherwise, we can apply anything out of context anyone says (or a verse out of context) to whatever WE want to apply it too. Context, facts, specifics, etc. MATTER. A lot. You don't want to drink? Praise God! You want me to feel guilty for having a glass of wine with my wife at dinner on a date? You got a tough road ahead of heaping that weight on my back. Just being honest. |
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| 2016/8/11 19:36 | |
| | Re: | | Quote:
proudpapa on 2016/8/11 17:37:15
RE: ///A very KEY statement: Do not let another man rule over your conscience.
You will surely displease the Lord as you let a man come between you and the Lord. He is a jealous God.///
That is the issue at hand, Men do not trust the Lord working in the lives of other men, so they take there own convictions and try to impose them on others, and than it becomes difficult to distingush between what is of the Lord and what is of man.
To allow other man to rule over your conscience is as feminist and unnatural as a man with long hair. and yet church history is a history of men ruling over each other , it is also a history of fighting, killing and condeming of each other.
Yep, proudpapa, it is a religious spirit that seeks to control others and is a mark of the cults. To seek to dominate what a person believes or thinks, and make them get approval from man is demonic. |
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| 2016/8/11 19:41 | |
| | Re: Jeff | | .
Brother I'm speaking of a church in America that is going worldly in the midst of darkness. And I'm also speaking of a faith remnant bride that God is calling out to be holy as unto Him.
But also a remnant that is living a crucified life as unto him.
There is coming a time when we will have to deal with the lawful and crucify it at the cross. I believe God will require that if we are to be holy as unto Him.
The Holy Spirit will bring us to the cross. How we respond to the cross will be up to us. And our flesh will rebell. Brother your issue is not with me. But it will be between the Holy Spirit and you.
Respectfully posted.
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| 2016/8/11 19:47 | |
sermonindex
Moderator
Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada
Online! | | Re: | | I was surprised with the clarity that this message goes over the point I have been making over and over towards wine being different today then in biblical times.
It is well worth watching to become informed. I am not saying the message is infallible but with many points I found it hard to be contradicted.
Has anyone taken the time to watch this?
Christians and Alcohol (Selected Scriptures) John MacArthur
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thXe-rtpl6U
Quote:
it is a religious spirit that seeks to control others and is a mark of the cults. To seek to dominate what a person believes or thinks, and make them get approval from man is demonic.
This is actually false-reasoning and not Biblical as there are clear admonitions that need to be applied to our personal lives from the Scriptures and to "underline" these warnings and admonitions is not controlling or abusive (cult). I have not told believers "not" to ever touch wine as it is clear in the Scriptures it was used in even the Lord's Supper. the question I would underline would be: Is the wine in the Bible the same as wine today? I do not believe this is semantics but rather reality.
It only takes a few cups of modern wine to show signs of lose of self-control, where in Biblical times to have a few glasses of a diluted mixture of which wine was, would not cause drunkenness or signs of its approaching.
I do not want to add to the cultural approval amongst modern pastors of encouraging people to drink, as this is a new phenomenon. What is wrong with the caution rather then hearty approval? Or some pastors going as far as repenting to their people that they did not start drinking sooner?
This has not been a repeated subject on the forums but it is well-worth to be raised. Again I am not personally judging brethren but airing a clear caution in the current evangelical situation we are in towards alcohol and its modern usage amongst believers, hence my posting the sermon by David Wilkerson.
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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| 2016/8/11 20:11 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Greg, there is no hidden meaning here.
Preaching and teaching the Word from a heart submitted to God is not characterized as "seeking to control others" or trying to "dominate their thought or speech" or letting men "rule over your conscience."
Quote:
it is a religious spirit that seeks to control others and is a mark of the cults. To seek to dominate what a person believes or thinks, and make them get approval from man is demonic.
I was commenting on something narrowpath said and it was perfectly in line with his comment when he said, "don't let other men rule over your conscience".
My comment has nothing to do with anything you have said. |
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| 2016/8/11 20:20 | |
| | Re: | | Bear,
The implied accusation at the bottom of your post is noted. I'm not offended, but I just think the baseline thinking is off. Scripture (in context) doesn't bear up what you're selling. You feel that way - great. Implied accusations that I'm not sold out to the Lord, obedient to the Holy Spirit, or willing to die & carry my cross because I have a glass of wine with my wife is accusational & unfounded. And I have asked a dozen important questions based on scripture in context & real world experience that have gone totally ignored and unanswered. That shows the reach of the argument to me. A contract lawyer who is a believer I spent time getting to know in Israel said that he's learned in court that lawyers who go on and on and don't answer the questions at hand, but keep distracting & going on with endless other things do that because they don't have the good, solid evidence. They have reaches. He said the same can be true in theological hermeneutical scriptural discussions. When I pose multiple questions & examples in scripture clearly about alcohol (not something general that anyone can apply to whatever they want to make a case for or against anything they want), it tells me that the case is not solid Biblically. It just isn't. How many gallons of this almost grape juice did the apostles drink in Acts 2? Or how many gallons did they drink in Corinth at the Lord's Supper to get drunk? Or how am I not running as well when I have a glass of Cabernet at dinner with my wife? Or why isn't there just a total prohibition in scripture? Or why was Jesus accused of being a drunkard if he never drank wine? Or why did Jesus turn water into wine of all things if having some in moderation is "missing the mark" ie sin? Or why would Paul instruct Timothy to drink a little wine (& record it in scripture) if that in itself was sinful? On and on. But no one answers these questions directly because they can't. Only straw men, blowing out my position to say it's something it isn't, & scripture "proof-texts" used out of their context and original meaning/intent. And then imposition of guilt & implied accusations that I'm not willing to carry my cross. As Ravenhill used to say: "That's Balderdash"! If the Lord, not a man with a Legalistic argument, speaks to me to never have a glass ever, I will. But I won't then go on a mission to eradicate all responsible, moderate, private drinking for all other adult believers in the world. No, I won't. I have seen the ugly face of legalism & regrets in the rear view mirror years later. I have seen the damage both licentiousness & legalism can do.
God Bless,
Jeff |
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| 2016/8/11 20:22 | |
