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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Jesus or Theology

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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1983


 Re:

/Calvin, Luther, or Owen are not going to sustain you in the trials and tribulations that lie ahead. But only a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ through His Holy Spirit./

Again, where is it said in Scripture that a relationship with Jesus through His Holy Spirit will be accomplished minus the Word? What is the Holy Spirit going to impart to a believer that is not in the Word?

31 Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you CONTINUE IN MY WORD, then you ARE TRULY DISCIPLES of Mine; 32 and you shall know the truth and the tyruth shall set you free. (John 8:31-32)

Continuing and abiding in the word and becoming true disciples go hand in hand according to Jesus.

Have you ever done a word study? I remember doing a word study on the word righteousness. Taking all the listings of the word you look up what it meant in Hebrew or Greek and go through the listings anf then categorize them according to what the emphasis is each time the word is used. It was a very useful exercise and in understanding righteousness better I drew closer to God. I've done word studies on the word "guide" and the word "faith" and other words. It's been very beneficiary each time and well worth the effort. It takes time and patience and was burdensome to a degree at times but the results can bring one closer to God. I'm not trying to toot my own horn but can recommend this type of exercise to every believer. Being a theologian who are not all hot shots or someone who has moved beyond the basic milk of the word through determined and or systematic study does not nullify one being a disciple of Christ. My gosh!


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David Winter

 2016/7/11 16:36Profile
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1983


 Re:

/It is possible to learn all about the mysteries of the Bible and never be affected by it in one's soul. Great knowledge is not enough.

...John Bunyon...


I thought the quote by John Bunyan would be appropriate to this thread. One can have great theological knowledge. One can have great knowledge about the Bible. But if one's soul is not impacted by what they read or hear about God. All they have is mental knowledge that puffs up the mind. But does not expand the heart to love the Lord Jesus Christ more./

But you seem to almost be saying that's it's counter productive to being a disciple to even try and increase in Bible knowledge. The Bereans searched the Scriptures daily.


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David Winter

 2016/7/11 16:41Profile









 Re:

That's a bit ironic Blaine you would use that one isolated Bunyan quote. It's true that it's "not enough", but it's not exclusive or totally devoid of it either. I have several Bunyan books & have read them. Of Bunyan, Spurgeon said if you cut Bunyan he bleeds Bible! Bunyan was an amazing student of the study of God's Word. One of Bunyan's books Grace Abounding is about his struggles of faith early on & God teaching him through solid theology to demolish strongholds & walk in freedom & victory! Bunyan was a theologian of theologians! Lol. Seriously. But because it's "not enough" (alone) doesn't mean it does not matter at all. That type heavy swing reactionary extremism/absolutism is why right thinking, doctrine, theology & teaching are so needed.

 2016/7/11 16:46









 Re:Jeff

“Pray and read, read and pray; for a little from God is better than a great deal from men.” – John Bunyan


Brother the above quote by Bunyan reflects my own thinking. But I emphasize again it is a relationship with the living Christ. It is a relationship with the living Christ by his Holy Spirit living in us who writes His Word into our heart.

If we want to truly learn about Jesus. Then we will quietly be in His presence listening to Him. We will be as Mary sitting at the feet of Jesus listening to His Word. He will breathe His Word, His truth into our life. Theology will not do this. But only a living relationship with the Living Word Himself.

You will not get from any commentary or exegetical work or theology that which Jesus himself can breathe into her soyl.

As I said opening up this thread,

You can have all of this theology but give me Jesus.
You can have all of this theology but give me Jesus.
You can have all of this theology but give me Jesus.

Got a train to catch to Little Rock bro. Must stand down.







 2016/7/11 17:38









 Re:

"If we want to truly learn about Jesus. Then we will quietly be in His presence listening to Him. We will be as Mary sitting at the feet of Jesus listening to His Word."
We can not be like Mary or Peter. They saw Jesus Christ physically in the flesh. When they listened to him there was no doubt that it was Jesus who was speaking. Many other eye witnesses testified also that it was him, and they saw his prophecies fulfilled etc.
When we sit down and listen to a spirit talking to us we do not know who it is. But luckily we have a bible to compare it to that describes who Jesus is. The bible says that we should not believe every spirit, but test the spirits. God the Holy Spirit doesn't mind at all if he is tested by his own words, he will always pass.
In a certain dark hour when we are heavily tempted we can not easily just sit at Jesus Christ's feet (if we could there would be no such thing as temptation), but we can always cry out: "It is written..." we can always use the sword of the Spirit when satan attacks us, which is not the smiling jesus who gives us a hug but the written word of God.
When we testify of Jesus to someone we can not talk about our personal experience with him only, but we should tell the person how He walked on the earth and was the fullfillment of all the prophecies. (All of these are objectively recorded)
There are 4 combinations we can choose from in terms of what to believe:
1. No scripture no Holy Spirit
2. Holy Spirit but no scripture
3. Scripture but no Holy Spirit
4. Scripture AND Holy Spirit

OP gives us a false impression that we have only 2 choices either 2 or 3.
OP initially satates that he believes in 2, later acknowledges 4 but essentially stands beside 2.
OP brands everyone that believes in 4 as if they would believe 3.
OP creates a false debate between the so called believers of 3 and himself who believes 2. The debate is false of course because no one believes in 3.
The purpose is to advertise 2, which is his belief and make it look more acceptable.
I think this tactic is deceptive and manipulative, not matching christian behavior.





 2016/7/11 19:28









 Re: Tozsu

Ephesians 4:29-30New American Standard Bible (NASB)

29 Let no [a]unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification [b]according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. 30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, [c]by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


Dear sister respectfully your post toward me did not reflect the above verses.

Respectfully submitted.

 2016/7/11 21:37









 Re:

Very good opening post and comments Blaine This nasty opposition to the truths you expressed are not valid whatsoever. (and should be expected) Much religion without Jesus is a dangerous and nasty business as attested to this ridiculous and baseless reply you received

 2016/7/11 22:18









 Re:

Blaine,
Please know I don't agree with the tone & comemts that could be taken as slander or accusatory. I don't disagree with what I think are your motives bro. I don't. I get what I think you're trying to say. I am just lovingly saying it needs to be better explained and counter balanced otherwise people get the wrong idea. Doctrine does matter. Theology does matter. Studying to show yourself approved does matter. Rightly dividing The Word of God & teaching it properly does matter (why "not many should presume to be teachers knowing stricter judgement awaits those who teach"), etc. But I am in no way attempting to slander you or accuse your motives bro. Please do not doubt that for a minute. I love your passion for the persecuted church (& share that burden as you are well aware - it is the Lord's burden and call as outlined in scriptures like Hebrews 13:3 & countless others directly and in principle). I just felt led to caution against the blanket statements & absolutism against right teaching, sound doctrine, & the Word. That's all. I will post those verses later. I had a long and really trying day on little sleep today, but I will get to it.
God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/7/12 0:28
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

I think this discussion would be better suited in an actual situation, rather than strictly theoretical. All we are doing is arguing about words that are already clearly defined in scripture.

There are Churches/Families/Individuals who are entirely legalistic--everything is about works and wages and they know nothing of Jesus Christ.

On the polar opposite end of the spectrum, you have Churches/Families/Individuals that completely neglect doctrine and say it is about a "Relationship with Jesus" but when you try to nail down what exactly that means, they hardly could tell you.

True believers exist somewhere between, on the narrow road. The goal according to Ephesians 4:11-16 is as follows:

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

There must be good doctrine. It is an absolute must. There must also be a working relationship with Jesus Christ. It must be so. One without the other is equal to having neither. Look at the purpose of each member of the body of Christ! Are we not each designed individually to spur one another on toward godliness??? Do we not each bring something to the table, spiritually, that others may not have; and do we not receive from other brothers and sisters those things which we lack? That's how the church is supposed to work.

It frustrates me to see that we pit these things against one another when they are supposed to work together. Man made doctrines are not equivalent in any form to theology. Not at all. So when we say "theology" or "doctrine" we should strictly be talking about what is good and true and not the falsehoods that try to creep in under those words.

Also, I know many men who have come from Seminary more learned and still lovers of Jesus. Why on earth are we bashing other believers who may have been instructed and led by the Spirit to go to those places!? Who are you to judge another's servant? Were you not dead in your own trespasses and sins and then brought under the covenant, not by your own strength of will, but by the awesome grace of Jesus Christ? Who are you to say that someone who was treated equally with grace is ruing their lives by attending a place where they can learn about Jesus? You don't know what is being taught to them. Maybe they are being instructed well, but your assumption is that they are nothing more than corpse.

I get it. Not everyone is really a Christian who says they are. But we have got to stop bashing the entire Church and everyone in it because of them.

 2016/7/12 7:09Profile
StirItUp
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Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 941
Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re:

You make some good points Nathaniel,

I think brother Blaine was making a statement regarding "dead" theology (if there is really such a thing:) ) in opposition to a living relationship with Jesus Christ.

Right and good and sound doctrine revolves around Jesus Christ, Who He is and what He accomplished in God's plan of redemption, as revealed to His apostles and carried over to us, the church.


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William

 2016/7/12 8:15Profile





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