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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Being led by the Spirit.

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 Re:

Quote:
by TMK on 2016/7/3 14:34:27

Further, when he says he did not know he was speaking to the High Priest, why in the world would we call him a liar? It doesn't seem very Paul-ish that he would lie about such a thing.



So, you are saying that it is ok to speak to others like this? Or are we to suffer persecution without threatening vengeance upon others?

Act 23:3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?

Act 23:5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

We are not really to speak evil of any ruler, correct? I think Paul's passions got the best of him in this case.

Quote:
by TMK on 2016/7/3 14:34:27
Every person must be true to his own conviction. Paul was upset that his friends were crying and begging him not to go.



Was it their conviction? Or was it the conviction of the Holy Spirit?

Act 21:10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
Act 21:11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.



TMK, I can see both side of this conversation and as well, I see deep spiritual lessons from both sides so I guess I profit twice over from these passages of scriptures and the lessons taught from both points of view.

 2016/7/3 15:16
Elibeth
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Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1148


 Re: Being led by the Spirit.

Brenda words:

"I would like to present to you,a man who got it wrong,for your consideration. A man who you would expect not to get it wrong,as he had
access to the holywritings of the prophets..The apostle Paul."

Paul,..this great man of God,heard the Voice of Jesus,...right away knew His Voice,and completely made a U tern in his strong-willed life,and right away was taught / enlightened by God,.....and from the start to ask," What would Thou have for me to do Lord ?,..and I believe continued to ask,through all of these many persecutions,...probably verbal,but much bodily injury.

And why,with so many apostles around him,did we not read where they
are correcting him,....rebuking him ?

Do I dare say the words that has come to me,about this ?


I must needs to,...

* Is something greatly AMISS here ?

* How can we CRITIQUE , Paul,this great / chosen man of God ?



Please FORGIVE me,if I have said the wrong thing...in behalf of our dear bro. Paul,who is teaching us so much of how we are to be / live kingdom people.
( the things that pertain to / and the principles of the kingdom of God)


Grieved,

----------------
elizabeth



 2016/7/3 16:46Profile
TMK
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Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

I don't know J- Jesus called the Pharisees a "brood of vipers." Paul got whacked in the mouth unjustly and he was just calling out the hyprocrisy of the situation. At that point, Paul had not said anything that deserved getting struck.

Saying "God will get you for that" is a tad different from saying "I'm gonna get you for that."


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Todd

 2016/7/3 17:01Profile
twayneb
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 Re:

Brenda: You are not the first that I have heard suggest that Paul might have missed the perfect will of God in this situation. The wording of the text does lead us to believe that the Holy Spirit said "don't go" and Paul went anyway. I remember when I first saw that verse. No one had ever suggested to me that Paul might have missed it, but I had to wonder myself. I still wonder if that is the case, but since we do not have more than one verse speaking to that case, I cannot be too dogmatic about it.

One thing I do know, it was not beyond Paul to miss it. We must understand that as anointed a man as Paul was, he was still a man. He was still subject to the same passions as any other man, and had the same capacity to miss God as any of us have. (See Acts 14:15) His devotion to God, his sacrifice, his calling, and his consistency perhaps made his likelihood of missing God much less, but he was still capable of it. Apostles are not superhuman. They are just called with a specific calling just like evangelists, pastors, teachers and prophets. His missing God here is well within the realm of possibility in my opinion.

But unfortunately it is hard to make that assumption dogmatically because there is only the one reference. But i have to admit, the verse is not easily misunderstood in its wording.


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Travis

 2016/7/3 17:30Profile
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 Re:

It is interesting that according to some records Ananias was actually not officially the high priest:

---

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible

And the high priest Ananias - This Ananias was doubtless the son of Nebedinus (Josephus, Antiq., book 20, chapter 5, section 3), who was high priest when Quadratus, who preceded Felix, was president of Syria. He was sent bound to Rome by Quadratus, at the same time with Ananias, the prefect of the temple, that they might give an account of their conduct to Claudius Caesar (Josephus, Antiq., book 20, chapter 6, section 2). But in consequence of the intercession of Agrippa the younger, they were dismissed and returned to Jerusalem. Ananias, however, was not restored to the office of high priest. For, when Felix was governor of Judea, this office was filled by Jonathan, who succeeded Ananias I (Josephus, Antiq., book 20, chapter 10). Jonathan was slain in the temple itself, by the instigation of Felix, by assassins who had been hired for the purpose. This murder is thus described by Josephus (Antiq., book 20, chapter 8, section 5): “Felix bore an ill-will to Jonathan, the high priest, because he frequently gave him admonitions about governing the Jewish affairs better than he did, lest complaints should be made against him, since he had procured of Caesar the appointment of Felix as procurator of Judea. Accordingly, Felix contrived a method by which he might get rid of Jonathan, whose admonitions had become troublesome to him. Felix persuaded one of Jonathan‘s most faithful friends, of the name Doras, to bring the robbers upon him, and to put him to death.”

This was done in Jerusalem. The robbers came into the city as if to worship God, and with daggers, which they had concealed under their garments, they put him to death. After the death of Jonathan, the office of high priest remained vacant until King Agrippa appointed Ismael, the son of Fabi, to the office (Josephus, Antiq., book 20, chapter 8, section 8). It was during this interval, while the office of high priest was vacant, that the events which are here recorded took place. Ananias was then at Jerusalem; and as the office of high priest was vacant, and as he was the last person who had borne the office, it was natural that he should discharge, probably by common consent, its duties, so far, at least, as to preside in the Sanhedrin. Of these facts Paul would be doubtless apprised; and hence, what he said Acts 23:5 was strictly true, and is one of the evidences that Luke‘s history accords precisely with the special circumstances which then existed. When Luke here calls Ananias “the high priest,” he evidently intends not to affirm that he was actually such, but to use the word, as the Jews did, as applicable to one who had been in that office, and who, on that occasion, when the office was vacant, performed its duties.

from: https://www.studylight.org/commentary/acts/23-2.html





Vincent's Word Studies

Ananias

He is described as a revengeful and rapacious tyrant. We are told that he reduced the inferior priests almost to starvation by defrauding them of their tithes, and sent his creatures to the threshing-floors with bludgeons to seize the tithes by force.



Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament

Ananias (ανανιας — Hananias). Not the one in Luke 3:2; John 18:13; Acts 4:7, but the son of Nebedaeus, nominated high priest by Herod, King of Chalcis, a.d. 48 and till a.d. 59. He was called to Rome a.d. 52 to answer “a charge of rapine and cruelty made against him by the Samaritans, but honourably acquitted” (Page). Though high priest, he was a man of bad character.



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 2016/7/3 17:45Profile









 Re:

Quote:

by TMK on 2016/7/3 17:01:46

I don't know J- Jesus called the Pharisees a "brood of vipers." Paul got whacked in the mouth unjustly and he was just calling out the hyprocrisy of the situation. At that point, Paul had not said anything that deserved getting struck.

Saying "God will get you for that" is a tad different from saying "I'm gonna get you for that."



I think you make some good points. I also think we would all be quite foolish in thinking none of the apostles ever got out of the will of God. The Church tends to raise men much higher than they should be and even Paul cautions against this. It is not important that we think they were absolutely perfect never making any mistakes concerning the will of God. What is important is knowing that they were called by God, loved God and served him with all their heart. They needed the Lord just as much as we do and the spiritual warfare against them was great, more than we can realize. We should not think the Lord never had to correct them or chastise them (Heb 12). That is extremely unrealistic.

Believing Paul or Peter were fallible and missed it, does not in any way cast aspersions on the inspired Word of God. We should all be used to the fact in the OT, God let man's failings (men of God) "all hang out". God does not hide anything from us.

 2016/7/3 18:07
dolfan
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Joined: 2011/8/23
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 Re:

Paul did not speak evil to Ananias.

1. Paul was often sarcastic in his writing. If Ananias WASNT the HP then Paul spoke nothing of rebuke to a HP and was putting Ananias in his place by the Spirit as even Jesus did to the Pharisees.

2. If Ananias was HP, Paul owed him no more regard than any other man who stood in the wrong. Paul spoke truth. No longer under the law himself and having Christ alone as HP, Paul was not wrong and at least demurred to him after learning he was HP. There is simply zero textual evidence to suggest that Paul lied and it is something to take exception to.


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Tim

 2016/7/3 18:15Profile









 Re:

What experiences did Paul have to be able to write scriptures such as these?

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 1 Cor 10:12

Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, Phil 3:13

Something else to ponder. Not theory to Paul.

 2016/7/3 20:22
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 2556


 Re:

its not that Paul was infallible , but the revelations and prophetic words from Paul were infallibly given by the spirit unlike our words Julius..

so when Paul says that he was bound by the spirit to go to Jerusalem and that the spirit warned him he will be persecuted . this is the truth of gods word. Period

if it not the truth then our scripture contains false prophecy from Paul...

who believes that ,this clearly opens up the door towards doubting other scripture by Paul as well..

this is called liberal hearacy .

who here has moved away from orthodoxy into heracy ...

 2016/7/3 23:06Profile









 Re:

No one questions whether Paul's words were inspired by the Holy Spirit or not.

It had already been stated that it is not clear what spirit is being spoken of. Paul's or the Holy Spirit.

There is nothing heretical about the view that Paul was being warned by the Holy spirit not to go to Jerusalem. Heresy is a very bad word to use and borders on the melodramatic. And the only purpose I can see for you to use the word "heretical" is to stop discussion on this. The "heresy" card is usually pulled in order to stop discussion.

 2016/7/3 23:42





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