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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Genesis 1 and 2

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TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Tim- Adam and Eve were created with adult bodies- agreed. But were they created with indications of decay - ie slightly worn teeth, calluses etc. now I know the answer is no because they were created perfect but maybe you catch my drift.

I don't think God did things in a deceptive manner, like putting nebulas a million light years away that weren't really caused by exploding stars, or creating rocks with radioisotope decay well under way or the moon with craters that were not caused by meteors.

I don't think it is in his character to be deceptive. That's why I have a big problem with the "appearance of age" idea.


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Todd

 2016/5/4 18:35Profile
dolfan
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Joined: 2011/8/23
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 Re:

Why is that deceptive?


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Tim

 2016/5/4 19:29Profile









 Re:

TMK,

You said "they were created perfect".

Perfect? really? Why would a God who created diamonds, emeralds, sapphires and gold make a perfect being out of the dust of the ground?

Lucifer was created perfect. Man and all of the six days creation work were simply declared good.

Of course the reason is profound.

marc mc

 2016/5/4 20:53
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Tim wrote: "Why is that deceptive?"

I am not sure if you are joshing me or not!

But I can try to explain although I might fail miserably.

Let's take the nebula example. Nebulas are formed when stars explode. We know this, and we have actually observed stars going supernova and nebula formation.

Some of these nebula are many, many many more than 6000 light years away. Of course a light year is the distance light travels in a year. So if we see a nebula that is 100,000 light years away, it would logically mean that the nebula was formed 100,000 years ago for the light to be reaching us now.

But if the universe is only 6000 years old, that means God placed a nebula in the sky that was never actually caused by an exploding star. He just put star remnants up there.

Now, this is only a problem if you believe that God knew that one day we'd figure things out. We know about astronomy; we know the life cycle of stars. We know the processes that turn stars into white dwarves, neutron stars, go supernova, etc. And we know that these processes take far longer than 6000 years. And we know of thousands of stars in different stages of development and decay because we observe them. So why would God do things in the skies to deceive us? Surely not because He thinks its funny how silly us humans are.

If you believe that God did not know that someday man would advance to a point of being scientific, then I suppose the "appearance of age" argument is not as significant. But I really don't think man's development took God by surprise.

The moon is an easier example-- why would God create a moon filled with craters? Did He not know that we would learn that craters are not natural formations but rather caused by meteor impacts? I can't see God creating a crater-filled moon, and then snickering because us silly humans think they were caused by meteors.

That big crater out in Arizona-- isn't it reasonable to deduce that it was caused by a meteor? How can we be sure that God did not create the earth with that crater already there? Because if He did, that would be deceptive and God does not deceive.


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Todd

 2016/5/4 21:37Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
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 Re:

Marc wrote:
"You said "they were created perfect".

Perfect? really? Why would a God who created diamonds, emeralds, sapphires and gold make a perfect being out of the dust of the ground?

Lucifer was created perfect. Man and all of the six days creation work were simply declared good.

Of course the reason is profound."
__________________________________________

You will have to provide me with scripture to prove that Lucifer was created perfect and you will have to provide scripture to prove that Lucifer is Satan- and please don't appeal to those passages in Ezekiel and Isaiah. Neither passage says any such thing.

Rather than being cryptic, why not just come out and say what you mean?

When I said they were created "perfect" my intention was to point out that they were not created with signs of deterioration like calluses and worn down teeth.


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Todd

 2016/5/4 21:41Profile









 Re:

TMK, it's all about hunger.

I used the question of Jesus saying the earth is round the way the Lord showed me years ago, it's a hunger test.

You did not even ask me for the verse where He says it. He showed me the unteachable will never ask.

Its your thread, i rummaged around a bit for fun but be well.

marcmc

 2016/5/4 22:24
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Marc- that's a tad ridiculous. Why are trying to "hide" your knowledge? That's sort of a gnostic-y thing to do. In the future I'll remember to beg (show hunger) for you to share your knowledge with us.

There is a verse where Jesus suggests that it is night and day simultaneously on the earth- but whether he was actually communicating that as a proof of earths spherity is up to question.


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Todd

 2016/5/5 8:34Profile
dolfan
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Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1727
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 Re:

Todd, I truly meant the question. First, let me say I think that everyone who looks to scientific evidence for a very old universe is on solid logical grounds based what we generally believe we know. My concern is that we actually do not know what we believe we know. I think about things like time dilation for example. The constancy of time.

For example, if I am a beam of light, if I measured how long it took me to get from one side of the Milky Way galaxy to the other side, I would say instantly. Time stops at the speed of light, or so physicists would have us believe. However, if I have a catchers mitt on one side of the milky way and you are on the other side throwing a beam of light toward me, it will take about 6 trillion years for me to get it. The point being that time itself is different depending on the perspective from which it is measured.

In my mind, when I read God's statement of "let there be light," I assume of course that He knew the rules that He created about the nature of light and time. From the perspective of the light itself, when God said to let it be, it could actually be at every point in the universe and be so instantly without having any time measurement attached to it from the perspective of the light itself.

We measure time from a very particular bias that may exist nowhere else. I am reluctant to dive into age of the universe questions because there is so much that we don't truly know. Another thought: God is light. He is more than just metaphoric light. He will be the actual light in the new heavens and new earth. If time stops at the speed of light, and if God is in an actual way -- light -- in His creation, then there is no timeliness to His acts from His perspective. He has not acted with trickery or anything like it. Indeed, for us to second guess His motive in making things look to us older than they really are from the perspective of the timelessness of light, we cannot say "why have You made things thus", can we?

It seems to me totally irrelevant to anything that matters how old the universe is.

There are things that surpass our simpleton abilities to know.


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Tim

 2016/5/5 18:54Profile
followthelamb
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 Re:

Just started reading through this thread more...I apologize for going slightly off topic for a brief moment, but regarding the creation account in Genesis:

isn't it amazing that, although science teaches that the sun was formed before the planets in our solar system, God tells us in His Word that He actually created the earth first and did not even create the sun until the 4th day...Great is our God and greatly to be praised!


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SI Moderator - Brandy Gordon

 2016/5/5 19:54Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
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 Re:

Quote: There are things that surpass our simpleton abilities to know

Surely there are- I am just not sure if the age of the universe is one of them. I mean- look at how much we DO know.

Edit: I mean, we can spilt the atom, discover subatomic particles, send men to the moon, FaceTime etc but we can't figure out for sure if something is a million years old or not? That does not make sense to me.


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Todd

 2016/5/6 9:56Profile





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