| Re: |
Easy on there bro Mark, I was not referring to you. I just do not want this discussion to be dragged into the isms of the other discussion. I think a proper understanding of our victory in Jesus and the defeat of Satan and where Satan is now is the key to understanding the issues of the other thread.............bro Frank
| 2016/4/23 14:46|
| Re: |
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
| 2016/4/23 14:48|
| Re: Brother Blaine|
awakened, I agree 100%, and thanks for the quotes Iam already encouraged greatly by them.
| 2016/4/23 15:06|
| Re: |
Death and hades (or Sheol in Hebrew) in Revelation get cast into the Lake of Fire in the end. Obviously/Surely you don't believe that has happened already? But even if he has been cast down into his domain of "Hell" for now (Hades, Sheol), if he is still roaming around seeking whom he may devour, then the "matter of factness" with which you are seemingly trying to shape could also be a "reactionary misunderstanding" too, no? And if He is "released on the earth having great fury, knowing His time is short" at the end, you must also be implying that's already happened too, no? Because after all, "it is finished", right? But even the original Greek there is Telethesthai which means "the debt is paid in full". The debt has been completely paid, but the title has not been fully assumed until "the end of all things" is consummated at the end of the age when Christ returns & establishes His kingdom in its fullness for all eternity. I think defining these words in these scriptures (& going to the original Greek & Hebrew to do so) is important if we are going to really rightly understand the matter, & looking at context, & considering ALL the scriptures on the subject too. It's like the discussion between "total sovereignty & freewill" in some ways. One side heralds Romans 9 & the other Hebrews (11 or 12 I think), but both are in the word of God & there is no contradiction in God, only incomplete understanding of it by man. I'm not saying the devil wasn't defeated at Calvary, & the debt paid in full. I'm saying the devil is still alive, still roams like a roaring lion and his demon principalities, & a time when he is released with great fury is still coming when "his time is short". The only way not to except ALL these truths reconciled without excluding any is to create a new paradigm where somehow EVERYTHING in the Word is already done & happened. Which I believe is a grievous error. Not trying to be sensational either brother, just honest.
| 2016/4/23 15:29|
| Re: |
brother Frank writes:
"Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment".
These references are only to certain angels who overstepped their boundaries so to speak...and not to satan.
John the Apostle writes about satans precise location at one point:
Rev 2:12: "And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: The One who has the sharp two-edged sword says this: ‘I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells."
In the 1st century, satan had set up his headquarters or whatever you may want to call it, in or around Pergamum.
Peter also was very clear..."satan goes about like a roaring lion..." So he was still on the earth causing trouble when Peter was alive.
Also Pauls had this to say about satans whereabouts:
2 Thess 2:18 "For we wanted to come to you — I, Paul, more than once — and yet Satan hindered us."
And lastly Jesus himself had an actual encounter with the person of satan during his 40 day fast...right there on planet earth in Israel.
| 2016/4/23 15:46|
| Re: |
1 Peter 5:8 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour."
Unless Peter was using figurative language (and i have no reason to believe that he was) it seems clear that despite having been defeated at the cross, satan can still stir up trouble. It's similar to "peace-keeping" forces staying in a region after an enemy has been defeated.
The key word in the above verse is "may." So the question that must be asked is "am I on the menu?" If I am not sober and vigilant I may be devoured.
My thinking on the subject can be summarized thusly: satan was defeated by Christ at the cross. What we are involved in now is a mop-up operation.
| 2016/4/23 16:25||Profile|
| Re: |
Saints I appreciate the good discussion and spirit on this thread. ( Also aporeciate you leaving the pots and pans in the kitchen :-)) Also a lot of good stuff being preented here.
Okay. Trying to walk through the discussion here. Frank asked if the victory over Satan at the cross was complete. I think we would agree this is the case. Jesus did say it is finished.
But then this begs the question. Why are we
seeing activity of Satan here on Earth? If the victory Of Satan has been achieved at the cross why are we still fighting the devil? We have exhortations of scripture to resist the devil. To put on the Ephesian armor. Yet we also see in Scripture that the devil has been defeated.
I'm just trying to come to grips with the two truths of scriptures. The truth that the devil was defeated at the cross. But also the truth that we are still fighting the evil one on earth.
Would appreciate your thoughts and insights.
| 2016/4/23 16:26|
| Re: Todd|
Brother good thought. In other words the war was won at the cross. But there's still a mop-up operation before we can enjoy the full picture of Jesus.
| 2016/4/23 16:29|
| Re: |
Tzunna spoke of our fight against Satan as akin to the Israelites occupying the land promised to them by God. Interesting observation. The land had been promised by God to the Israelites. But they had to fight to occupy it.
From God's perspective the victory over Satan has been won at the cross. From God's perspective this is a done deal. But I wonder if as the Israelites, we have to fight to occupy that victory in our individual lives and ministry.
Thoughts to ponder.
| 2016/4/23 16:33|
| Re: |
My understanding is that it is only as we are living as 'crucified' with Christ, that the victory that Jesus obtained for us, is operational.
Although it occurred 2,000 years ago, and we are positionally there, in order for the operation of it to be manifest in our lives, we must accept there is a part for us to play.
It is not by any effort on our part, but in the 'reckoning' of Romans 6. We must reckon ourselves dead to sin and finished with all working from the old man.
If we reckon ourselves dead to sin then Satan has no grounds in us but the slightest movement of trusting in our flesh, nullifies the place of victory and down we go.
| 2016/4/23 16:38|