| Re: It takes more than a simple yes or no|
Reasons for deductions after putting together the scriptural data have to be given. If someone answers yes or no on the questions then why the yes or the no? Then if one gives answers from the sincerity of their heart is the other sdie just sitting there waiting to immediately pounce on your answers with sarcastic disdain? Even if people can give answers why should they if their answers will then be subjected to mockery instead of a well reasoned and polite response? How can one be interested in a simple yes or no answer when that would fall very short of a needed and well explained answer? The way the question has been asked, asking for a simple yes or no answer, hints that the side asking already knows the answers to expect and will just be waiting to pounce. That's the way Julius' questions appear. Theology and eschatology can be fun even and full of edification for both sides if these things that hinder can be gotten around.
| 2016/4/24 16:33||Profile|
| Re: Why Not Look at the Text Itself|
Brothers I have no dog in this fight. I have tried to stay off the multitudes of end times threads. Bear in mind more godly saints than us have debated these issues. With the result being we still don't have a full understanding of Revelation 20. And there is still disagreement.
If I might humbly suggest go back and read Revelation 20 asking God to open up that chapter. As I looked at the chapter these questions come to mind.
Who are the saints who reign with Christ for a thousand years?
What is the first resurrection?
What is the second death?
What are the thousand years?
When I was involved with The Navigators we were taught inductive study analysis. We were taught to take a passage of scripture and to quiz the passage. We were taught to observe the passage. We were taught to interpret the passage. And then we were taught to apply the passage.
In observing the passage. We were taught to ask who, what, when, where, why, how. You can go online or go to any Christian bookstore and find a handbook on Bible study methods. The best way to analyze a passage is to observe, interpret, and apply.
And by the way the above is done generally without the use of commentaries. But then you have the Holy Spirit who's the greatest commentator.
If you would take the time to do this. The blessings of Revelation 20 maybe will open up. And if this is done in humility. God will reveal His truth.
I would urge those of you in the forum who are really interested in Revelation 20. And this is where the controversy lies. Do an inductive study analysis of the passage.
At this point I do not have the time or the will to do such. But there are some obviously that have a burning interest in the question of the millennium. So I implore you. Do an inductive study analysis of Revelation 20. And then bring your conclusions back to the Forum.
If this is done. Maybe we can get away from throwing the pots and pans at each other. And come in humility to the word of God. Asking the Holy Spirit what He is saying to our hearts.
Saints simply my thoughts posted in humility.
| 2016/4/24 17:02|
| Re: Inductive Bibke Study|
If you Google inductive Bible study. Some good sites come up. Inductive Bible study consist of three components. Observation, what does the passage say. Interpretation, what does the passage mean. Application. What does the passage mean to my life. Or how does the passage apply my life.
So forum, any takers to do an inductive study analysis of Revelation 20. If you do. I believe there will be greater blessings than reading the insights of other men. For you will be getting your insights directly from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Simply my faults. Now I will bow out.
| 2016/4/24 17:11|
| Re: Future events|
/Docs, you said I said "the book of Revelation is not concerned with any future events"
I did not say that and don't believe that./
/I said once that the Book of Revelation was written to serve as an encouragement for Christians of all ages to endure and persevere during the time between the Lord's first coming and second coming as they hope for the consummated victory in Christ. Until that time, Christians must be willing to share in Christ's suffering even unto death. The emphasis of the book of Revelation is not on charting future events eschatologically, but on the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through His Church despite probable mistreatment (in the world ye shall have tribulation) and the temptation to revert to religious self-preservation./
That last reference is the reference I was referring to. Especially,
"The emphasis of the book of Revelation is not on charting future events eschatologically, but on the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through His Church despite probable mistreatment (in the world ye shall have tribulation) and the temptation to revert to religious self-preservation."
Perhaps I misconstrued it a bit and if I did I apologize. Yet at the same time, your reference seems to indicate that the book of Revelation was not written to provide any emphasis or foresight on the future. Your view expressed above of why it was written is up for much debate at the very best. The book procees in a orderly and chronological way manhy of the detaills Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremiah and others didn't include. The downfall of the devil is in the details of the earlier prophets as they say. Revelation describes the final persecution Israel and the church will undergo, the ascendacy for a brief period of the Antichrist, his unholy rage against Isartel and those who keep the testiomony of Jesus and the pouring out of final wrath upon the world. It includes the resuurection of the dead which coincides with the physical return of Christ, the creating of a new heavens and earth after 1,000 years and of the final expulsion of Saran to the lake of fire. Then the new Jerusalem comes down from God. If a large part and even the majority was not written and preserved to give us instruction about future events then the Holy Spirit didnt get the memo! It may include the church over the centuries etc. as you said but that isn't all brother. A large part of the emphasis in Revelation is on future events and not just the personal conduct of believers over the centuries. I believe one can understand much of the future's coming chronology by studying Revelation. Its emphasis after the beginning letters to the various churches is to forecast for the church what is to come to it during the final tribulation the church will endure and therefore what to expect and how to arm themselves to conduct themselves properly during this time. And to install hope since God has everything under control.
| 2016/4/24 17:16||Profile|
| Re: |
Yes, you misconstrued. The "emphasis" of Revelation is not a book to chart events, but rather as John outlined in the first chapter, The emphasis is the Revelation of Jesus Christ and that is why Christians in every age will be blessed if they read it. It is not solely applicable to the very last generation on earth, but equally applicable to every Christian in every century.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS"; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. BLESSED IS HE THAT READETH, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.
And, what were the things that John was referring to that "must shortly came to pass", for the NT saints and is equally applicable for saints in every century?
Surely, John was referring to something.
| 2016/4/24 17:29|
| Re: Applicable in all ages|
/It is not solely applicable to the very last generation on earth, but equally applicable to every Christian in every century./
Equally applicable? It would seem the the generation facing the end of the age and the church's greatest persecution ever leading to the second advent of Christ that coincides with the resurrection of the dead would have more than just a equally applicable "it's all happened before" interest in the chronology of events events set forth in Revelation. Equally applicable with a asterisk for the last few generations. But your chronology is that we are already living in the new heavens and earth and "new Jerusalem" has already ascended down from God.
| 2016/4/24 17:45||Profile|
| Re: |
There are events that revelation speaks of that happen in every age. It is not a book of events that only happen in the last generation that earth puts forth. I'm sorry, I can't be any clearer than that.
Jeff and I both made a promise to bow out of end times conversations for awhile. Go and study what events in Revelation are common to every generation.
| 2016/4/24 17:59|
| Re: Not every generation|
Yet not every generation will see the second advent of Christ and the resurrection of the dead and the final expulsion of Satan to the lake of fire and brimstone. How can every generation see a final great persecution from a fourth and finol beast and man of sin prophesied to appear at the end of the age? How much clearer can that common sense fact be?
| 2016/4/24 19:16||Profile|
| Re: |
Blessings to you, docs.
| 2016/4/24 19:19|
| Re: A nation of servants|
Contrary to much popular opinion, not all persons on the earth will perish during the final tribulation. Christ didn't say everyone will perish to the very last person. Rather He said, "If those days had not been cut short, no life would have been saved" (Matt 24:22). So some life will be saved and will have survived when Christ returns to earth. The scriptures also speak of the survivors of Israel:
2 In that day the Branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth will be the pride and the adornment of the "survivors of Israel."
3 And it will come about that "he who is left (survived)" in Zion and remains in JERUSALEM will be called holy - everyone who is recorded for life in Jerusalem. (Isaiah 4:2-3)
Jerusalem is the place Christ ascended from and is the place where Christ will return to. Not all of this nation will have perished and He will reveal Himself to the surviving remnant as He takes His place upon the throne of David (Zech 12:10). Nature will have the curse lifted and nations will not be allowed to learn war anymore. Christ will rule with a 'rod of iron' so to speak meaning His word will not be voted on by committee. I believe Jerusalem, the literal Jersualem, will become a city of renown and praise in the earth (Isaiah 62:1-5) for many reasons but the chief reason being the personal presence of its long departed King and Savior. It will give Israel a place of prominence among the nations the same as any nation would have prominence if Christ personally resided there. Before this return, the final tribulation will have left Israel as a humble and contrite people.
12 But I will leave among you a humble and lowly people, and they will take refuge in the name of the Lord.
13 The remnant of Israel will do no wrong and tell no lies, nor will a deceitful tongue be found in their mouths; for they shall feed and lie down with no one to make them tremble. (Zeph 3:12-13).
This contrite humility, forever purged of nationalistic pride (“We have Abraham as our father so what can you tell us?”) will have forever been purged from their heart and they will be able to serve the nations instead of lording it over them. Therefore when the nations submit to Israel and its Christ they will be submitting to a blessing because the blessings will issue forth from a SERVANT NATION not dedicated to its own interests but one intent on serving the interests of others. Christ the head was a servant and He will rule over a nation of servants.
25 But Jesus called them to Himself, and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.
26 It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant.
27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; (Matthew 20:25-27)
The word of the Lord will issue forth from a servant nation (Isaiah 2:3, Micah 4:2 ). Priestly service is best manifested in service to others and the nation will be a kingdom of priests fulfilling its foremost duty of priestly service by serving the nations. God will send survivors from among them to declare God's glory among the nations and those who survived in the nations.
19 And I will set a sign among them and will send SURVIVORS from tjhem to the nations: Tarish, Put, Lud, Meshech, Rosh, Tubalm, and Javan, to the distant coastlands (all the earth) that have neither heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they (the surviviors of Israel) will declare My glory among the nations. (Isaiah 66:19)
The millennium will be a thousand year vindication in the sight of the nations of God's covenant promises. God will openly and beyond doubt be revealed as having been faithful to His word. It will be a sure and unmistakable thousand year lesson for all to see including the unseen powers. God will clean things up in time and history at the scene of the crime (man's sin) before moving on to the eternal state. If God doesn't vindicate himself in time and history then He lost history after the fall yet the millennium will be a open vindication of the Lord and His word for all to see. At the scene of the crime.
Israel, the coming nation of redeemed servants, has had promises made to it that no other nation has. Yet there's not an iota of scriptural evidence anywhere that says God has to do for all nations what He does for this one particular nation. That modern concept, “if God does it for one nartion then has to do it for all nations”, is rooted in deeply inbred subterranean humanism. That doesn't mean anyone and everyone in all the nations cannot partake of Christ's salvation. It's just that one nation has been chosen as a peculiar vessel from which all the blessings orginate. In keeping with this, God has promised to raise up a Israel that will be faithful to Him forever beginning in the millenniuim.
34 And they will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more” (Jer 31:34).
There will not be a person among the surviving remnant of Israel who will not know the Lord and their millennial fidelity is assured.
21 “And as for Me, this is My covenant with them”, says the Lord: “My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring's offspring”, says the Lord, “from now and forever.” (Isaiah 59:21)
Not one person among Israel will not know the Lord and Israel will NEVER AGAIN depart from the Lord. It will be a perfect thousand year demonstration of the perseverance of the believer.
9 Then their offspring will be known among the nations, and their descendants in the midst of the peoples. All who see them will recognize them because they are the offspring whom the Lord has blessed. (Isaiah 61:9)
If this nation has a place of pre-eminence among the nations, as the chief servant of the nations, then what is the problem if they will be modelling their Savior in this respect - He is first and foremost a servant and they will model this openly. If from them manifold blessings will flow then why be concerend about whom the blessings come from? Their blessings will result in blessings for all. If I have to go to a certain house each day to get a drink of water then why should I complain about who runs the house? Especially if the house with the water is run by a household of servants who will lay down their life for me and are dedicated to my interests and not their own. The last thing I should raise as a complaint is if God has done that for them HE HAS to do it for me! If God chose Israel originally and not other nations and Christ came to Israel and will return to Israel then who should complain if Israel comes to a place of prominence since from the place of prominence nothing but blessings and peace will flow? Man wants to be unhinged from submission but God has designed it so that blessings can come only if submission is the order of the day. The millennium will not be a free for all of nations but submission will be required to obtain blessings. But if the blessings come from submission then the required submission of that day will be a divinely inspired piece of practical wisdom if for no other reason than that it deals a burrsome rub to the humanistic concept that God is obligated to do for all nations what He has done for one peculiar nation. The reality overlooked by many who kick against this is that this peculiar nation will one day be transformed to the image of its Savior who was a Suffering Servant. After Israel suffers at the end of the age it will corporately bear the image of its Suffering Savior as it will have become a nation of servants who have suffered and bear the image and of its suffering servant Redeemer who emptied Himself and came not to be served but to serve. If man resists he will resist the blessings coming from the servanthood of God.
Thank you and blessings to all.
| 2016/4/24 19:25||Profile|