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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Third temple - Is it the church?

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Joined: 2006/9/16
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 Re: Full circle

/ He (JESUS) confirmed the covenant with many (his first jewish followers) during his ministry for about 3 years. Then (in the middle of the 7 years) by his death on the cross he stopped the temple sacrifices and after this through war the temple and the city was completely destroyed./

The temple sacrifices were not stopped until 70 AD about 37 years later. So this view that Jesus stopped the sacrifices mid week has a gap theory also of 37 years.

The temple and city were detroyed but why have we come almost full circle with Jerusalem being filled again with a Jewish presence and surrounded by hostile armies intent on its destruction and the genocide of its inhabitants? 70 AD stares us in the face again and the Son of Man has not returned which He said would occur when these things happen.


_________________
David Winter

 2016/4/21 17:37Profile









 Re:


After Jesus' death the animal sacrifices had no meaning to God. Daniel 9 doesn't say that the destruction will be done in the next 7 years but it says it is being destroyed until it comes to an end because it's end is determined.
Can a prophecy be partially fulfilled? I think it's only fulfilled when it's 100% fulfilled, otherwise it is unfulfilled. Daniel 11 is fulfilled in the times of Antiochus IV who thought of himself that he was Zeus and named himself Epiphanes the manifestation of God. And Daniel 9:24-27 was fulfilled 490 years after the starting of the reconstruction of Jerusalem, and some years after till the city and the sanctuary came to an end.
After that God has one people (Jews and Gentiles) in Christ.
Ephesians 2:14
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

(Edited for better grammar)


 2016/4/21 18:51









 Re:

Antiochus doesn't fit the description of the antichrist in multiple passages. That's a "forced fit". When you really study it out, a European revised Roman Empire doesn't fit either. Islam fits ALL the prophetic references like a glove. Antiochus was like what 70 AD was: a "foretaste" initial fulfillment picture of a greater, larger, more perfectly fit, eschatological apocalyptic end times final full fulfillment.

 2016/4/21 19:04









 Re:

I put this link to a chart previously in the thread did you read it? http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/daniel-11.html It is pretty convincing to me. Some skeptics even attack the autenticity of the book of Daniel because they say it must have been written after the events, as those events are depicted with very high accuracy.

 2016/4/21 19:16









 Re:

Again, I am not disagreeing that Antiochus Epiphanes was "a fulfillment" of the prophecy. Just saying that he is not "THE" ultimate end times fulfillment. And too many other prophetic passages show that there's more yet to be fulfilled, & in the context of the parallels in Daniel that tell this same prophetic story. Trust me, what's coming on the earth in the antichrist in size & scope makes Antiochus Epiphanes pale in comparison as far as scope/reach/sheer numbers/magnitude/etc.

 2016/4/21 20:45









 Re: Is there a precedent for double fulfillment in the bible?

As I was asking this question, I found this interesting article about double fullfillment. http://www.christian-faith.com/a-question-about-the-double-fulfillment-hermeneutic/
The article explores the possibility of double fulfillment and tries to find a case in the Bible but CAN'T FIND ANY. Is it wise for us to assume that Bible prophecies fulfill more than ones when we can't find an example for that in the Bible?

Regarding the temple being the church the last commenter for this same article named Toni Muse said in January 2016:
"I forgot to comment on your question about the “temple” in 2 Thessalonians 2. The Greek word that Paul used that has been transliterated as temple is “naos”. Paul never used “naos” to describe the physical temple, but only when talking about the body of Christ as being the temple of God. Food for thought…"

 2016/4/22 0:22









 Re:

The "never a double fulfillment example in scripture" thing is misinformed & just not true. there are multiple clear examples of this. Here's something Joel Richardson wrote recently in an email discussion on this subject:

A good example might be when Peter cites Joel 3 and applies it to the day of Pentecost. But contextually just read it, Joel’s prophecy is tied to the celestial signs in the sky, (the moon turning to blood etc.) and the Day of the Lord. The Book of Revelation written minimally 20 years (more like 40) after Pentecost places these events in the future. Spiritual fulfillment, literal fulfillment. Both are true. One never changes the original meaning. At times, the Apostles brought clarity to OT passages, but never do they ever abrogate the words of God.

Another example is Jesus quoting literally half of a portion of Isaiah 61. Right in the middle He stopped and said this has been fulfilled in your midst. Yet the full context of the passage concerns the day of the Lord’s vengeance. This portion has not yet happened. All agree. Ultimately, Jesus came and set captives are etc. But true and ultimate freedom does not come until all of the captives are free and fully free.

Again, Amos 9 is another example. You (some) insist it was “fulfilled” and thus has no future application. Yet read the rest of the prophecy. What do you do with verse 15? You have no basis to say it was fulfilled as in no longer has any literal application.

The fact that this was the manner that Jews interpreted Scripture is fairly well agree upon. In modern terms, the Rabbis practice what is sometimes called PARDES. It is arguably a subtle variation of their practices in ancient times. You can read about this hear: http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/archives/40

There are many many more as well.
God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/4/22 0:53









 Re: Is there a precedent for double fulfillment in the bible?

In Acts 2:16 on the day of Pentecost Peter refers to Joel 2:28-32. Joel says that in the last days the Holy Spirit will be poured out. The HS came on the day of Pentecost. (Just as Jesus promised in John 14:26) This prophecy of Joel was fulfilled only ones. After that Peter quotes Joel's prophecy about the darkening of the sun etc. (destruction of the temple), that must happen before the returning of the Lord, (and it did happen ones in 70 AD) so they should repent and believe in the Lord.
Where is the double fullfillment?
Experts don't all agree that Revelations was written after 70 AD. Some say it was written before, in that case the future tense of darkening of the sun (which refers to the events in 70 AD) is undersandable.

When Jesus read a portion of Isaiah 61 in Luke 4:18-19 about why he came it was fulfilled ones. Jesus did not come an other time in history to heal the brokenhearted and free the captives etc. When Jesus will come back he will come with a different mission: to judge
Where is the double fullfillment?

Amos 9 is talking about the destruction of the house of Israel (70 AD) but God would leave a remnant, these are the faithful ones, those that know the Father and the Son, these are going be blessed forever.
Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Where is the double fulfillment?

I highly appreciate the knowledge of the Jewish People about the Old Testament. The technics that they apply seem efficient and reasonable.
I would trust a Jewish commentary about e.g. Genesis, however I as a Christian would not follow a Jewish interpretation of prophecies. Most of the prophecies in the Bible are about Jesus the Messiah and his kingdom.
The Jewish people who till this day do not recognize Jesus as Messiah could not possibly understand those prophecies.



 2016/4/22 3:38









 Re:

It's almost as if you didn't read my post?

ANOTHER example is Malachi 4, where it's is written of "Elijah to come" it's in the context of the Day of the Lord, & John the Baptist came in the Spirit of Elijah, but clearly there is another fulfillment to come just before the return of the Lord ("the Day of the Lord"). Unless you are a "hyper-preterist", & believe that already happened too, you are forced to reinterpret scriptures that would be contradictory to your view.

What you have espoused here is hyper-preterism. You must Tear Romans 11 out of your Bible, or explain it in a way that makes zero sense contextually & create different interpretive hermeneutics passage by passage to try to keep it propped up, while ignoring much of scripture. 70 AD was a foretaste. An initial down payment fulfillment. What's coming will be much larger in scope/scale/magnitude/numbers & will be the ultimate EndTimes eschatological fulfillment of Ezekiel 38&39, Daniel 2/7-12, Psalm 83, Isaiah, Micah 5, Revelation 12-13&17, etc. I have been studying this night & day for awhile & have written on this extensively in the forums. When you really close in & compare scripture with scripture, preterism just shows more and more and more flaws/issues/inconsistencies. And I don't have it all figured out, but I know preterism is not the answer/truth. Both by a pure, deep, focused study of scripture & for a host of other reasons that come out of it as its fruit/logic/necessary ultimate conclusions/etc.

God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/4/22 8:42









 Re:

I have read your post and answered every point of it.
The purpose of this thread is to present an alternative theory of interpreting the scriptures, so that the readers would be inspired to search the scriptures as the Bereans did and test both (or all) theories. Everyone is free to draw his own conclusion. Arguments are natural to this process but those need to be about the scriptures and as between brothers not enemies, so that we all would learn and come closer to the truth.

2Thessalonians 3:16
16Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all.

God bless everyone,
Zsuzsanna

 2016/4/22 11:59





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