/I do see now what you and others that believe in this eschatology are doing, now. It took me awhile, but now I understand. You are taking words the Holy Spirit meant as figurative to reveal a spiritual truth/reality and you are making them literal. You are missing completely the spiritual realities that should be in your life that the Bible is trying to communicate to you.This is why you and others use the word literal. You want to convince us that the prophetic figurative speech the Holy Spirit is using in the OT to teach spiritual realities in the NT is literal and not figurative. But, you will not be consistent with it because if you were, then all the figurative words/phrases in the OT, made literal would be ridiculous. You are picking and choosing the figurative phrases that should be literal, yet you follow no hermeneutical rules or consistency about it or just plain common sense. When is prophetic figurative speech, figurative and when is it literal? Whenever you say it is. (END)No, not at all julius. Those are just things I believe you have been taught and have read from others. It's a common observation that is basically the same wherever it is presented but it's just wrong and doesn't take into account the true views of the side it criticizes.Yet I will have no more to say and am bowing out.
What struck me was just because Joel Richardson has appeared at some conferences alongside of Cahn etc. that somehow he must be guilty of something nefarious because look who he runs with and rubs shoulders with. It just isn't true that if you say appear at a conference with other speakers that you are also a person intent on peddling books or whatever. And what if Richardson has spent some time with Jim Baker and his wife? Maybe they invited him. Richardson said they were nice, humble and down to earth hospitable people. What if you or I spent some time with them and found them to be nice, humble and down to earth hospitable people? Should we continue to hold Baker's past failures against him? Look at who Richardson runs with is just a bit much for me, blanket guilt by association, and is just another example that there is substantial personal poison that has crept into and now saturates these discussions. It's morally shabby and is a sin against the Holy Spirit. Repentance for all of us can yield sweet and peacebale pure fruit. Months ago I made a post and wanted to discuss in a civil manner the question of why would a millennial exaltation of Israel disrupt the untiy of the one new man. Much to my suprise, and after my appeal up front for civility, that thread turned very nasty and persoanl and basically it has continued for months. I believe the issue of Israel and its future is monumentally important for the church and the role it will be called on to play during the last days. Christ ascended from Israel and will return to Israel at His second advent. But it can be discussed in a civil and respectful manner. But it hasn't been discussed in a civil and respectful manner much of the time and I've had enough. I'm afraid to even mention or bring up the subjectt now because I know that two or three posts and replies into the thread rudeness will have already shown its head and the thread is ruined and the rest of the forum is defiled. Basically the unnecessary rudeness of a few have a lock on the forum in my opinion. I will compliment you though because your side and view have for the most part been many more times civil than the other few folks. Kudos to you for that. I don't see you as a Jew devouring person wallowing in outright deception although I dont agree with many things you have shared. But heck, it's a discussion forum. There are always going to be a multiple variety of views shared. Meanwhile, I know Joel Richardson a tiny bit and he isn't the person that was portrayed. And this type of demeaning brothers and sisters needs to stop. So I'm bowing out and plan on tending to my own garden and heart for a while. What a disappointing series of months of uncivil dialog this has been. Thank you for your calls for more polite dialog with one another. Theology I guess can fool us if we think we have it but spew personal bitterness toward others. It reeks to high heaven, has been a spiritual negative weight to the forum and its vision, and shows there are many doors in our hearts we have kept shut up against the divinely pure and undiluted love of the Holy Spirit that God wants to shed even more abundantly into all of our hearts.I'M OUT of this and meanwhile consider you a brother. How can I serve you or pray for you? I sincerely ask that.
"a-servant, whole families got saved in Acts, the Fountain is Jesus Christ."yes, but you did not adress the point (or any previous points) I gave you to consider. You pick the above main point and think that's it, and ignore the rest in Zech, because your pre-text in your understanding convinces you that it would be ok to be ignorant on all the smaller points you cannot fit, in order to make it work and sound coherent.That's why you miss was Zech is talking about - completely. You cannot differentiate between 2 events that look similar - but are not. Your studies on this have no depth, it's more like the quick fix solution for people that choose to stay on the outside, but never get to the bottom of one topic.See this whole thing you tried to identify here "What is spiritual, what is natural and what is literal?" totally escapes you, in order to get any understanding on this you would need to withraw yourself form the permanent forum chatter you engage yourself in to keep yourself busy expressing opinions on every idea that presents itself, and for once try to really understand something by reading the full contexts of the scriptures slowly you so quickly gloss over and read into, instead of let them read to you.
David, I hope I haven't been perceived as coming across in that way in these discussions? If I have, it's certainly not my heart. I may have seemed defensive, but the view that Israel still has a prophetic calling in the last days fulfillment seemed to be getting so slammed in the forums IMHO that I felt it was time to speak up for a different view. Hopefully I didn't come across as argumentive, unloving, or arrogant? And yeah, Joel seems to be a real genuine brother. And also, in fact, the first time I watched the new Jim Bakker show I had some reservations & I know what he did in the past (& I don't agree with him on everything I would bet), but when I put personal "appearance/preference" judgementalness/criticalness out of my heart, I found him to be repentant, humble, broken, & with a desire to see people serve God & prepare their hearts & lives based on the vision God gave Him. I have realized in recent days that sometimes we can even have "the gift of discernment" & not realize we are actually internally at times using that as an excuse to "unrighteousness judgement", speculation, having a critical spirit, etc. & not be walking in what 1 Cor 13 says love actually looks like. Humbling. Anyways, I'm not fully there where I want to be, but I would hope those that know me best would say they can see the growth in my life in recent years in these areas. May I/we all continue to grow from glory to glory in Christ by going low & being humble, gracious, & loving (while still not compromising truth). You have my email. PLease Keep in touch & send me anything you want & send me anything good from Reggie Kelley concerning Israel in the Last Days. May God Richly Bless you in all things, Jeff
You didn't come across that way. Spirited discussions are not anathema at all if somehow and some way the love of Christ for each other can be maintained./the view that Israel still has a prophetic calling in the last days fulfillment seemed to be getting so slammed in the forums IMHO that I felt it was time to speak up for a different view. Yes it was and it wasn't wrong to bring the opposite view. It's needed wsince tha latter day controvertsy of Zion is here to stay and it itself is so wrapped up in a large part of what the church's role is to be during the end days. It's just that this discussion ended up getting heated and very nasty. In my opinion it may be and have been the worst season of personal insults and carnality this forum may have ever seen. It became grieiving in a very big way. And now I feel reluctant to even try and discuss the issue in a civil way because it will get bitter very quick when it doesn't have to. And in my opinion, some on the pro-Israel side were very rude and overly accusatory. Then the hearsay accusations against Joel Ricahrdson were enough for me. If it's going to go that way then I want out.Peace and blessings.
Matthew 21:43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.1. Does the 'kingdom God' here pertain to kingdom of Israel.2. 'You' are the physical descendants of Jacob in contrast to 'spiritual jews'?3. 'Nation' refers to church?4. What is the spiritual interpretation of this verse.I'm just wondering how this verse validates preterism or replacement theology.
Acts 28:26-31 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.This does not negate the promises God has made to Israel, there is plenty left for God to do with National Israel. Be it His timing, not ours or even looking to the scripture and thinking we know what and when God is going to finish the work He has begun with Jew and Gentile in Christ and The Promises of God which cannot be taken away. Who knows the mind of God and who can give Him advise?All we can to is be of One Mind in Christ, taking, "Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence," for all those that the Father sends Him and us.What does it matter what God does for Israel? Our concern is what is God doing by speaking to us by His Son unto salvation till He comes? Wanting to know what God is doing or going to do is a good thing but we cannot allow it to divide the brethren in Satan' name, just so we can prove who is right, which no man truly knows.Hebrews 6:1-2 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.Yes, even for Israel.In Christ: Phillip
I do think it matters. If there's prophecy in the Word of God, it's written throughout the OT Prophets & discussed in Romans 11, Acts 1, Revolation, etc. to say "why difference does it make?" Seems kinda obvious to me?Is it "the most important thing"? No. Is it "all that matters"? No. But to say "what difference does it make?" When God took the time to put it in His Word? The verse you laid out in Hebrews actually in context talks about not again laying foundations of milk (& names them) on to "meat". Let's not add to the Word of God by our assumptions. That verse actually doesn't nullify my whole point, but strengthens it.You may not care about the Issue of Israel & that's fine I guess, but God obviously does" ("ALL scripture is spirit breathed/inspired & is useful for teaching, correcting, reproving, rebuking & training in righteousness"). Again, prophecy isn't "the only thing" or "the most important thing", but it's not "nothing important" based on what any man says, but what God says in His Word.And I'm not out "preaching the Gospel of Israel" day to day but the Gospel to every creature. But I didn't start this OP & I'm just replying. To say "this causes division where satan can work". I agree! But I think if you study church history thoroughly you will find that it's actually the doctrine that "Israel is no more important at all" that satan has used best to bring forth his fruit. One in nullifying the Word of God, 2 in saying parts of the Word of God don't matter, 3 in saying God doesn't keep His promises/Word, 4 in saying that we can "spiritualize" any text we want at will out of context to suit our favorite theological paradigm. No small matters in my book. "Let God be true & every man a liar" is what my Bible says.Also, if you look at the historical fruits of both views, I think it's evident that it at THE VERY LEAST "CAN matter" tremendously. Likewise, I believe it will matter in the days ahead. Anyways, not trying to be divisive, just honest & faithful to the best of my ability. God Bless, Jeff
It is not of "no matter" that God is still dealing with Israel, for they are still in full sight of God and His dealing with the whole world by and through them. It still leaves man in simple statement of the "Gentiles will hear it". Hear what? That Jesus Christ is the central figure in all scripture, be it for Jew or Gentile and making Israel relevant or not relevant is obviously not the most important part of the central figure of salvation. The Jewish people are still Gods people and He will surly deal with them at His coming. I love the Jewish people and pray for them always and am inflamed at the present administration in Washington of their disregard and plain bad will toward them.If this is too much Jeff, Greg, or anyone else, please disregard this post and pray for me that I might be more understanding of Gods plan for my salvation when it comes to where Israel is concerned. As I have said, Israel has a special place in the Heart of God and mine. All I wish I could do is Hug every one of them and tell them how much I love them and wish their salvation and the goodness of God for all. Because without them God would have had to use a different way to bring me to Christ.I don't understand exactly where you are coming from Jeff, but I will continue to hope for your love and growth in the things of God and ask that you continue for me.In Christ: Phillip