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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What is spiritual, what is natural and what is literal?

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 Re:

That's one weird (seemingly sarcastic) question Julius (the whole people crucifying themselves as imposters on Easter thing)? Really?

Look, you & I hardened our heart against Christ initially right? I did. I didn't repent & put my full faith & trust in Christ & get born again the first time I ever heard of him. But that's why I fully believe in election & irrefutable grace (that's "like a hound from heaven out of Romans 7 tracking me down" as John Piper once said). I don't have it all figured out. And I still hold it somewhat loosely. I don't know exactly what it all "looks like". Fact is, NOONE but the Lord does (as far as every aspect, manifestation, how it plays out, etc.). Prophecy is easier to see & explain as it actually finally passes you & you turn and see it in the rear-view, than way off in the distance (we see through a glass dimly, in part).

So I reserve the right to be wrong about any of the specifics. But Romans 11 is pretty clear to me as a general blueprint for something concerning natural Israel coming in mass at the end. I just was getting really tired frankly of the "Phillip Mauro-A thon" & the condescending, straw men, so sure of themselves arguments day after day after day after day, so wanted to share the way I see/interpret the scriptures. And I'm in pretty good company when I looked into it. And a lot of the other company for your view is REALLY bad company with really rotten fruit.

 2016/4/4 23:15









 Re:

A lot of that goes on during Easter, around the world.

By the way, what do non-religious Jews know about a Messiah? A lot of people today are believing and seriously looking for super intelligent alien life.

Our five senses are deceiving and that is another reason that God gave us the witness of His Spirit.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

What is it about Jesus appearing physically that non-religious, atheistic, transcendental, Kabbala observing, totally lost Jews will find captivating? How will they be born of the Spirit, when Jesus is right in front of them? Granted, they are no different in that respect than a lost Gentile. Non-religious people today are into so many different satanic things. How will Jesus convince Jewish people that He is God?

What if a Gentile is also convinced? Will they be saved?

A lot of people today have Jewish blood in them and don't know it by the way.

 2016/4/4 23:31
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE: /// I'm in pretty good company when I looked into it. And a lot of the other company for your view is REALLY bad company with really rotten fruit.///

What you did not provide as company was anyone in the first 1,000 years of Christianity/christianity.

Where are you getting your information ?

You claimed that Dietrich Bonhoeffer believed like you do.

"Bonhoeffer's defense of the Jews, however, was based on Christian supersessionism - the Christian belief that Christianity had superseded Judaism as the new chosen people of God. Despite his outspoken defense of victims of Nazi persecution, Bonhoeffer still maintained, on a religious level, that the "Jewish question" would ultimately be solved through Jewish conversion to Christianity. The Church strongly advocated this view, as did the ecumenical movements most responsible for aiding Jewish refugees fleeing Nazism."
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Bonhoeffer.html

 2016/4/5 0:06Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1961


 Re:

The Hebrew world view never contained the notion that the God of Israel would one day to away with the physical earth and universe and take His people completely into a spiritual kingdom only. None of the OT saints and prophets ever expressed a desire to just make it to the other worldly kingdom. The Hebrew world view always included the earthly and the spiritual in harmony and complimenting each other. The New Jerusalem, the city above, the heavenly Zion is eventually coming to EARTH. Jesus said go and make disciples of all nations. The popular retort Jesus didn't die for a earthly kingdom has stripped the saying of Jesus out of all context when He said, "My kingdom is not of this world." I'm assuming the nations he said to go into and make disciples were earthly nations. Why is Jesus coming back go a physical earth? The Hebrew world view of the spiritual and the earthly dwelling together in harmony has been virtually erased by by the amill perspective that anything of the physical earth is crass and inferior.


_________________
David Winter

 2016/4/5 0:14Profile









 Re:

How about some scriptures, doc?

 2016/4/5 0:19
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1961


 Re: John 18:36

John 18:36 - NASB

36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

It won't matter what I share with you bro because you recently heartily endorsed the view that we are already and presently living in the new heavens and new earth. That view is a contradiction in itself of your view that the kingdom Jesus spoke of is spiritual ONLY beacuas eif we are living now in the new heavens and earfth which are supposed to be spiritual realities then why are we still surrounded by a physical earthly existence.

It doesn't matter though good bro. I'm bowing out of this thing tomorrow beacsue the recent blanket guilt by association employed in what I see as a not so honest way against Joel Richardson is about it for me. It's all I want to partake in at this point. Even though I chipped in a bit today, it's not worth being exposed to this anymore.

15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; (Hebrews 12:15 - NASB)

Besides being personally defiled I have the view that the whole forum has been sullied and defiled because of a few and I'm disentangling and walking free of the bitterness which causes the defilement. I'm sorry and apologize for anything at any time I may have said that was unwarranted and unecessary. You and I go at it sometimes but I aklways walk away looking forward to next time and not overly offended or bitter. I was a moderator on a forum once and every time we allowed the participants to moderate and police themselves and their own motives it never worked. Some people just want do it because they don't want to do it. I count Greg as among the most patient people I have ever encountered. Combined with the precious thing I believe God is doing in my life right now, Greg's recent words that we should not even want to win an argument against another in the first place but rather look to serve and edify speaks volumes to me right now. Being committed to winning an argument against another precious believer at all costs may actually be a revelation of a place in our heart we have not allowed Jesus into yet.

Blessings my friend.


_________________
David Winter

 2016/4/5 0:37Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by docs on 2016/4/5 0:37:02

John 18:36 - NASB

36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

It won't matter what I share with you bro because you recently heartily endorsed the view that we are already and presently living in the new heavens and new earth. That view is a contradiction in itself of your view that the kingdom Jesus spoke of is spiritual ONLY because if we are living now in the new heavens and earth which are supposed to be spiritual realities then why are we still surrounded by a physical earthly existence.



Do you deny we are "seated with Christ in heavenly places". "New Heavens" is figurative speech to communicate a spiritual reality to us. Why do we need physical new heavens. In eternal life, heavens aren't physical, they are spiritual.

When a Christian is born-again everything "on earth", figuratively speaking is new. New way of living, new way of thinking, new way of dealing with everything in life. Everything is now done all by the Life of Christ.

2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

We are experiencing aspects of eternal life, now on earth? Peace with God, union with Christ, freedom to not sin, grace to overcome, power over Satan and the flesh, ruling and reigning with Christ over the powers of darkness, having all the power of heaven at our disposal through prayer and fasting, and just asking Jesus, etc, etc?

You think "new heavens and new earth" are physical, I get it.

I do see now what you and others that believe in this eschatology are doing, now. It took me awhile, but now I understand. You are taking words the Holy Spirit meant as figurative to reveal a spiritual truth/reality and you are making them literal. You are missing completely the spiritual realities that should be in your life that the Bible is trying to communicate to you.

This is why you and others use the word literal. You want to convince us that the prophetic figurative speech the Holy Spirit is using in the OT to teach spiritual realities in the NT is literal and not figurative. But, you will not be consistent with it because if you were, then all the figurative words/phrases in the OT, made literal would be ridiculous. You are picking and choosing the figurative phrases that should be literal, yet you follow no hermeneutical rules or consistency about it or just plain common sense.

When is prophetic figurative speech, figurative and when is it literal? Whenever you say it is.

Ok, so we have been going all day and not getting anywhere. That is because we really are speaking two languages.

And what is the end of the matter? We are not in sync in just basic Bible hermeneutics.

We are surrounded by a "cloud of witnesses". Is it a real cloud?

Jesus is coming on the "clouds", are they real clouds?

Jesus said, "Take eat, this is my body". What are we eating?

The Holy Spirit used figurative language all through the OT to reveal spiritual realities. Men are earthbound and God used the things we are familiar with to communicate and explain spiritual truths to us.

Jesus continued this when He was on earth.
Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

But the Bible interprets much of itself for one who has the Holy Spirit (discernment) so we don't have to read into it meanings that don't exist.

You can't force a square block into a circle so I guess we should pray for each other for a time and maybe come back to this later to see if the Lord has given each of us more light on our respective positions. Sound good? It does to me.

God bless.




 2016/4/5 1:12
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE: ///It doesn't matter though good bro. I'm bowing out of this thing tomorrow beacsue the recent blanket guilt by association employed in what I see as a not so honest way against Joel Richardson is about it for me. It's all I want to partake in at this point. Even though I chipped in a bit today, it's not worth being exposed to this anymore.///

That Hurts. I sure did not want to hurt you Docs.

I hold great respect for you, and feel awful that you got hurt.

I am going to allow the Lord to work on me about this.

I sure do apologize for hurting you.





 2016/4/5 1:20Profile
a-servant
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Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

Hi Julius:

"Acts is a perfect fulfillment of Zech 12:10."

no it is not, you only read parts that have something in common, and make a comparison out of that. This is a later time here in Zech. Where is the following great mourning in Jerusalem - in Acts? When did Jesus cut off the names of the idols out of the land? and also He will cause "unclean spirit to pass out of the land." And there are more things happening, all about what Jesus will do at that time. Where is that in Acts? It isn't.


12  And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13  The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14  All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Zechariah 13:1  In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
2  And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

 2016/4/5 4:00Profile









 Re:

a-servant, whole families got saved in Acts, the Fountain is Jesus Christ.

Time to go, other things to talk about.

May the Lord help us all.

 2016/4/5 8:22





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