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Perhaps this is a more succinct way to ask;
What were you hoping to achieve by using Finney as a negative example of an extreme?
| 2016/3/13 12:37||Profile|
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First off, just so you know 😊 - I likewise benefit from the preaching teaching of many people in both camps & I consider myself technically in neither perse. I am "more reformed" in my theology understanding election, predestination, total Soveriegnty, Soveriegn Grace, etc. I am not a "Calvinist though". And likewise I believe that "Faith without works is dead" & that the warnings and exhortations in the NT are given for a reason, but am not by any stretch an "Armenian" in my theology.
What was I attempting to accomplish? Nothing. I wasn't trying to accomplish something. I wasn't trying to be subtle & crafty in returning to "my agenda". I wasn't doing anything intentional or deceitful. I was just sharing my thoughts from my heart. No harm intended. No offense intended. No agenda hidden. Just sharing what I have seen/learned through the natural flow of conversation, but not trying to swing a sword or an agenda either. I tried to be clear about all of that too. I don't know what else to say really. I'm being honest. God knows. Sorry if it offended or bothered you. I do think no man is infallible or above examination (or comments, spoken in love & gentleness learned from experience in walking with the Lord & having him "evolve/mature/grow" my understanding in certain areas). I'm not "slaughtering" Finney as a heretic (s some do, who also do so also some of Washer, Ravenhill, etc.), but saying he was a brother & greatly used of God, but just sharing an observation. I can think of No man in the last 2,000 years who was PERFECT in every way, every teaching, etc. Some not heretical or anathema, but genuine: but not entirely perfect on every point/doctrine/focus (which includes me, you & everyone else). I don't see a problem being respectful & gentle (which if you go back & read the entire posts, I thought I was), but still weighing & considering the doctrine/teaching/focus.
But I wasn't "attempting to accomplish" anything. I didn't have premeditated designed intent. If you don't believe that, I can't do anything about that (or blame you entirely, this is an Internet forum - you don't KNOW me & I don't KNOW you like as if we were in actual physical real regular fellowship together). But my heart/conscience is clear in the matter.
God Bless you,
| 2016/3/13 13:16|
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Does "Get Back to Jesus",mean that, we are called to the same Life as Jesus.....Paul,......Peter,.....etc....and the original first intentions of God, Christians ?
Jesus Lived 'a crucified Life',always,even before He was litterly killed.
Being 'crucified',..doing The/His Father's will,and dying to His personal
(1Cor.2:2), "For I determined not to know any thing among you,save Jesus Christ,and Him crucified."...(And,we know that Paul was filled with the Knowledge of God,But he knew Jesus,in the death to self/crucified Life,)
(Gal.2:20),'I am crucified with Christ:nevertheless I live;yet not not I,but Christ Liveth in me:and the Life which I NOW Live by 'THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD,who loved me and gave Himself for me.
....But what kind of FAITH,did the Son of God have ?
(Gal.4:14),"But God forbid that I should glory,save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ,by whom the world is crucified unto me,and I unto the world."
(2Cor.4:10), ...."Always bearing about in the body the dying of Lord Jesus,
that the Life of Jesus might be made manifest [made real} in our body
v11,For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus'sake,that the Life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh."
Are we too,called unto this same Life,if we get back to Jesus ?
In much thought,
| 2016/3/13 13:22||Profile|
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Thanks for your response.
And apart from the "death" of our flesh there is only "spiritual death".
While the spirit of God may be in a person that does not in itself (in my understanding) necessitate that they will walk in the spirit, which would only be possible by a "reckoning oneself dead" to this world and the disire of their flesh to rule over them.
I know most read this scripture differently but in my understanding James 4:5 directly addresses this,... as does most of his epistle as he draws a continuous contrast of the two and what each looks like and produces.
Hope that helps:)
| 2016/3/13 14:04||Profile|
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This is about getting back to the Jesus of the cross. There are many Jesus' (false Christ's) in this world but only one Jesus of the cross. Jesus Christ and the cross are eternally linked and cannot be separated and all those who name His name must deny themselves, pick up their cross and follow Him.. There is no other way, there is no other life than the crucified life.
| 2016/3/13 17:32|
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I thank you,Bro.JFW,
...I pray for MUCH Grace for us.
I do not believe in our FLESH,we can over-come this FLESH life...It is such a strong spirit.
Satan places SOOOO much power and importance on this (flesh) life.
But our Lord wants His LIFE ),to RULE,be Lord,...yes,in essence,what you said,..... in the now life.
But our flesh is weak,and it can only be accomplished by God' Grace.
Grace:..The same Devine enfluence upon our hearts,that drawed us to
Him,.. Godward,at the first,and will continue to draw us to Him.
Remembering how tender in heart and hungry we were,and still desire this ?
It was not of ourselves,it was supper-natural,.....strong.
So as this Grace is guiding / drawing us,We do not need to FAIL,of this Grace of God.
God grant us more of Your Grace,
That we may grow up together,IN Him.
| 2016/3/13 20:22||Profile|
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You are hitting the proverbial "nail on the head". That is the prayer we all need:
"God grant us more of Your Grace,
That we may grow up together,IN Him"
Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his LIFE shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his LIFE shall preserve it.
The word LIFE comes from the Greek word psuche. Psuche is the only word translated "soul" in the New Testament It occurs 105 times, and is rendered "soul" 58 times, "life" 40 times, "mind" 3 times, and "heart", "heartily", "us", and "you" once each.
IV. psuche, used to emphasize the pronoun, as we use "self" (e.g. "my soul" = "myself"), occurs 21 times and is rendered
1. "soul" : Matt. 11:29; 12:18; 26:38. Mark 14:34. Luke 1:46; 12:19. John 12:27. Acts 2:27, 31; 14:22; 15:24. 2Cor. 1:23. Heb. 10:38. 1Pet. 1:22. 2Pet. 2:8. Rev. 18:14.
We cannot follow Jesus with our "soul life" taking the lead. And that is why we need the cross in operation (crucified life) in our walk, heart, soul. If we walk in the Spirit, we are embracing the cross and we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, soul life, self.
He that seeks to save his "soul life" shall lose his soul. Same as he that refuses the Spirit and the cross in his life and chooses his own way (soul life), shall lose his soul. Everyone will die physically, so we know the physical body will be lost. That is not in question. This earthly tabernacle will decay and go back to dust. Jesus is really talking about our soul-life and our soul. And the cross is the way out and the way to save our souls. But, there is no cross without Jesus and no Jesus without the cross. Those who separate Jesus from the cross take advantage of grace and those who separate the cross from Jesus are trying to save their soul through works (asceticism).
You raise very good questions.
When we talk about "getting back to Jesus", we are talking about "walking as He walked", and allowing the work of the Spirit in our lives to conform us to Christ. "Not our will but Thy will be done".
We will not "reign with Him", if we are not willing to pick up our cross and deny self ( soul-life). We deny Him when we refuse the operation of the cross in and against our soul-life, self.
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
| 2016/3/13 21:03|
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It's all by His unfailing grace and its divine influence upon us that enables us to walk in the spirit/abide in Christ:)
That was really very well put brother, thank you and I couldn't agree more:)
| 2016/3/13 22:44||Profile|
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Thank you, JFW...
I appreciate your contributions and find them encouraging.
| 2016/3/13 23:06|
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"This is about getting back to Jesus of the cross."
"There is no other life than the crucified life."
Yes, we thank God,...
Now,We know that we have also a cross,..a death,in order to live,...have His Life abiding in us.
He tells us:
( Mk.9:34), (Jesus)..."Whosoever will come after me,let him deny himself,
and take up his cross,and follow Me..
VS.35,For whosoever shall save his life shall lose it;but whosoever shall lose his life for My sake and the gospel's,the same shall save it."
(Lk.9:23),"And He said to them all,If any man will come after Me,let him deny himself,and take up his cross daily,and follow Me."
(1Cor.1:18), (Paul)"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness;but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
(Gal.5:11), (Paul) "And I, brethren,if I yet preach circumcision,why do I yet suffer persecution ?then is the offience of the cross ceased."
( The cross is to deny /die,to "our will',and to do His will.)
(Phil.3:18), (Paul),"(For many walk,of whom I have told you often,and now tell you even weeping,that they are enemies of the cross of Christ: (VS.19),Whose end is destruction,whose God is their belly,(appetite) and whose glory is in their shame,who mind earthly things.)"
Thanking Him who is able to save us to the uttermost,
| 2016/3/13 23:29||Profile|