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Thank you for responding and I apologize for not making my question clear enough... and I'm rarely offended so no worries there:)
Btw I def would agree it would be unfruitful for you to lay out all that you would disagree with that brother Finney said/taught, especially here on SI so thank you for your restraint.
I'll try to "play the ball" as bro Frank says but you make it difficult,...
You said (in your response to me) that you didn't mean to demean, etc... Charles Finney yet you used him to characterize an extreme that you don't agree with and its because you "feel" he's unbalanced. Which by the way you tiptoed around with me but make it a statement of fact in your subsequent response to brother Julius.
Generally speaking, when someone uses another person who otherwise was not part of the discussion as an extreme example of what's wrong,... that's demeaning - it is judgement - and it is belittling... Just so you know:)
So my question (hopefully more clear) is this, what (in Christ) gives you the right to tear down (and you did by your use of him as an example of what wrong was) another brother who, a) is dead b) not part of the conversation c) has brought 100,000's into the kingdom as one of the greatest revivalist in American history and d) who in spite of his misgivings as a man, most every name you listed of men whose teaching you do find balanced and look up to... admire Finney, go figure?! In fact I've only heard them say complimentary things about Finney in public and couldn't imagine otherwise even if privately they held beliefs that varied from his, they respect how the Lord used him to advance (in a mighty way) the kingdom....
So where, (In Christ) do you find this right you so frequently exercise?
And I say frequently because I've observed you doing this on several issues/topics here on SI.... it's like in basketball a person pushes off to create space then acts like that push off didn't give them an advantage, but when they get called out for it they then begin to throw elbows (Finney comment) down low in order to give themselves more room to operate, again taking occasion to assert themselves over another player to gain an advantage, which in basketball is all good because it's a competitive sport but this isn't brother Jeff... and if anything we're called to strive to maintain unity in the faith and these wild "elbows" don't really promote that, even if you "feel" like they helped.
And please dear brother understand this is not about Finney, as his legacy speaks for itself and the glory brought to Christ thru so many entering into the kingdom thru his ministry as does Wesley, Whitfeild, Spurgeon etc... and doesn't need me to defend it as it has legs of its own- having said that it would be inappropriate for me to bring Whitfield into a convo and unashamedly use him as a bad example of an extreme because I disagreed with his doctrine or methods. I'm hoping you can see that while doctrine is important it's not the point,... if we make it the point we make it an idol. And so looking back God used men of varying doctrines to advance his kingdom in mighty ways and is Himself not bound by the doctrines that men ascribe to Him;)
Hope this helps to clarify my questioning of your comment-
| 2016/3/13 10:46||Profile|
| Re: |
To be honest, I didn't even follow you on what you are accusing me of in the second paragraph that ends in saying I'm being demeaning to someone & folowing it with a smiley-face. Sorry, I don't follow you.
Secondly, what gives me the right to share my opinion based on what I have seen, experienced, read, etc. is that people are entitled to share their thoughts, feelings, & opinions on an Internet forum thread (which is part of the entire point of it actually). Fact is, scripture says we are not to rebuke an elder harshly, but doesn't say we can't share what we think. Maybe it's not actually knowing me & this being an Internet forum layout, but I feel as though I was just sharing my thoughts & you are coming back with a big, long, bony corrective finger screaming, "what gives you the right!!!!" It's a forum thread. I can differ with someone's, even a man of God's, theology or a certain aspect of their ministry. That's ok. I'm entitled to it. So are you. But so am I.
Just a question based on a hunch: I wonder if you if you are staunchly Armenian in your theology (that's ok. I used to be. I'm not puffed up in pride or accusing anyone of not being a brother)? I wonder if you would have been so offended had I shared "MY" thoughts/feelings/opinions of the real or perceived theological imbalance of the preaching ministry of George Whitfield? I wonder?
Fact is, some of the Finney writings & some of the Puritan writings can be misunderstood or over-focused on neglecting other supporting truths that are crucial for one to have a right balance/understanding. True that many don't even want to look squarely at their sin! Preaching which touches upon these golden calls specifically is good. However, One can be so focused on their own sins & repenting in delist and ashes that they never "LOOK UP" unto Jesus in true faith, to believe, how the conscience cleansed, & walk in the victorious life.
Like those that make a lot of Paul Washer Sermon Jams. I love Paul Washer. One of my all time favorite preachers. But people focus so much on the "hard things" he said and make comps out of them, that many don't know his overall preaching ministry is very balanced, Christ-focused, that He preaches on love & Grace as much/more than sin, Etc. he said himself it's like "Paul Washer isn't even Paul Washer." And when he has been truly too hard in how he preached, & been convicted of it, he goes back & publicly admits it & repents of it & pours out his heart (but that doesn't make God comps or sermon jams now does it?). My point is that Finney & the words he spoke/preached is not beyond analysis. He was not infallible. He was a man. I just shared my thoughts. It's an Internet forum thread. I think I'm entitled to do that, don't you?
| 2016/3/13 11:10|
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And I ended my thoughts with
"These are all just my 2 cent observations/opinions though."
| 2016/3/13 11:28|
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Okay guys, I think the title of this thread is " Lets get back to Jesus." In that vein, what are your thoughts on this, not the poem itself but what it says.......
Hope and majesty surround you
You are covered by impenetrable light
You stretch out the heavens like a curtain
And you separate the day from the night
You ride upon chariots of fire
On the clouds that cover the sky
You walk upon the wings of the wind
We exalt you oh Lord on high
The seas flee away at your presence
And the mountains fall down at your feet
The valley's they dance to see such things
And your enemies all suffer defeat
The birds all sing in the branches
Of the God who feeds them each day
The lions are fed and the mountain goats leap
The great fish of the deep they do play
The moon lights up the sky at night
And by day the sun warms the earth
You hold these things in the palm of your hand
And all these things you preserve
Hide your face and the whole world is troubled
Hold your breath and we crumble and die
Look away and the world falls to pieces
We are lost without our Lord on high
I will sing to the Lord as long as I live
I'll tell the story, not the half but the whole
Of my glorious Father in heaven above
Bless the Lord oh my soul
| 2016/3/13 11:31|
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That's awesome Frank! Did you write that? Good stuff brother!
And I'm sorry, I didn't mean to deviate from the OP. I was just sharing my heart/thoughts along the way. Not trying to couch my words to win an argument or a debate or anything. I want to make sure I am just getting back to Jesus too! His person, His presence, His words, His heart, His ministry (the part of the Body ministry He gave me to do), etc.
| 2016/3/13 11:39|
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it's so revolting to see all this biting and devouring one another in such a pleasant manner in these forums. This religious one-upmanship is truly nauseating but tempered by the sweet venom injected in such a tactful way.
| 2016/3/13 11:58|
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Yeah, I don't disagree that such can be nauseating. I had actually prayed & asked the Lord, "Lord, is it me?" Am I doing that and not realizing it? If so, it's not my conscience intent for sure. Anyways, God Bless!
| 2016/3/13 12:10|
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Jeff, disagreeing is good, pushing agenda's not so much. I cannot say that you are doing this at all. I happen to agree with almost everything you state in these forums and if I agree then it must be true.
God bless you too!
| 2016/3/13 12:20|
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Well, I don't intend to do that (though important things in your heart you feel the Lord has shown you - given you light on over time in walking with Him & living in His Word, will have "carryover" importance on the grid in which we view a number of things spiritual), & I don't want to get "sucked in" to it by others either. I try to avoid it if I think it's just an attempt to get an argument started, while also not being scared to have the conversation if someone is really interested in having an open, honest, humble conversation. It can be hard to really discern intent on the internet though - especially when you don't really know people & can't see into their eyes as they share.
| 2016/3/13 12:25|
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Again I apologize for my lack of clarity, please bear with me as I attempt to frame this question in such a way so as to illustrate its relevance to the topic of this thread...
Tho before that I will answer your question to me:)
Am I staunchly an Armenian? No dear brother I confess that I'm not even a Armenian in any form that would afford me admittance into their camp. Having said this I'm not a Calvinist either tho I benefit greatly from reformed teaching as I do Armenian. For me it's not about doctrine,... It's about Jesus, hence the title/attempt of this thread.
Also I was in no way pointing boney fingers at you or even asking in a pointed way "what gives you the right"? Rather I'm inquiring as to your exercise of a right you seem to find beneficial,... namely the inclusion of another (quite successful) Saint who was not previously part of the discussion in a way so as to characterize him as a bad example-
So I ask where do you see that Christ affords this right to you when the Lord Himself obviously benefitted from using this man in this way?
I sincerely hope that makes clearer my inquiry into your comment/characterization regarding brother Finney-
And yes we all have our opinions and while expressing them is permissible it's not necessarily profitable to the cause of Christ.
Brother Jeff, also please accept my apology for making you feel accused, that is in no way my intent but I understand that sometimes in a forum format one persons attempt at preventing another from feeling accused (by utilizing disclaimers) can in fact have the opposite result. Which in this case I am apparently guilty of and so I as your brother in Christ ask your forgiveness for this misunderstanding and hope that going forward we give one another the benefit of the doubt regarding such things:)
| 2016/3/13 12:32||Profile|