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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5485


Matthew 7:1-2 “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

How about instead of criticizing publicly when we discern sin or weakness in a brother, we pray for him instead? We pray that the Holy Spirit will address it with that person. Like Chambers says, only the HS can do this without hurting and wounding.

Do we have so little faith in our prayers that we jump to our human tendency to judge and criticize first?

Let's face it- the primary reason we criticize and judge is not for that persons sake or for others sake. It's so we can feel better about ourselves.

That is why Jesus says "Don't."


 2016/2/15 12:34Profile


It is always amazing to me that when people quote Jesus on the Scriptures about judging they don't take all of Scripture into consideration on what that does and does not mean. We are COMMANDED in Scripture to judge, not unrighteous judgment based on the Mere appearance alone, righteous judgment which points to the issue of discernment, and correction where necessary.

I'm not taking some huge side here or whipping out a sword to chop if Peyton's head or anything, but Based solely on the way some here are using that scripture out of its greater context and in conjunction with other scriptures where we are absolutely commanded to judge matters, I think a couple of things should be pointed out. And honestly, this makes me think of Paul washers infamous quote where he says, "often when people tell me Judge not lest you be judged just, I tell them to twist not the Scriptures out of their context lest he be like Satan" often when people tell me Judge not lest you be judged just, I tell them to twist not the Scriptures out of their context lest ye be like Satan."

Paul judges & rebukes Peter PUBLICALLY TO HIS FACE. He calls him out publicly in front of everyone for the sake of the gospel and a proper testimony for preferring the Jews over the Gentiles in the scripture in the New Testament.

Also, I Corinthians 5 is pretty clear on the matter of making judgements concerning those who claim to be Christians ( and I am not a "teetotaler", so I'm not attacking him, I'm just speaking to some here's exegetical use of the Scriptures could basically say no one can judge anything because Jesus said so):

"9I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, DRUNKARD (caps mine for emphasis), or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you.”

So there definitely is a place to judge the behavior, actions, and words which include a public testimony to the world for those who claim to be Christians.

 2016/2/15 13:40


I can't judge ones heart, but I can judge (& speak to) ones behavior, actions & words" ("out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks - Jesus)

 2016/2/15 13:42

 Re: SI Forums have not changed much it would seem:-(

Thank you Todd for posting this. This quote from Oswald Chambers is perhaps the one saving grace of this entire thread for me. It was worth the slog through the rest of the twaddle, claptrap, balderdash, gibberish, poppycock, hogwash, codswallop and flapdoodle just to find this one shining nugget!!! :-)

I recently turned off facebook and decided to check out SI to see what I have been missing for the past year or two. Not much from the sounds of it. Still the same old nitpicking, self-righteous, judgmental, holier than thou posts as always. Yes there are some good ones for sure but it is amazing how many posts end up like this one here on SI.

Perhaps it is not just SI forums but ALL christian forums?

Those of you who post several times a day can probably not see what I am talking about because you are so used to it and you may have acclimatized like the proverbial frog in the kettle. But take a break for a year or two and come back and you will have a while new set of eyes.

What would an outsider see exactly? Just a reading of the posts on the home page alone and one finds christians judging a football hero because he drinks beer after a superbowl victory!!! And it wasn't just here, facebook was FULL of the mud slinging.

Read a little further and you will find christians suggesting that God might allow a pastors laptop to be stolen because it could have become an idol! This is response to a plea for prayer. Seriously???

A little further down and you have a post about GFA and KP. Judging a pastor and pronouncing him guilty of all kinds of allegations because the finances are not up to the standards of ECFA is pure and utter slander and gossip. Whole websites are dedicated to these endeavors it would seem. Even the secular world knows better than to condemn a man without a fair trial and yet there are some on this forum who seem to have an axe to grind by coming here to this public forum to smear a man who has given his life to serve Jesus Christ.

But these are not isolated cases. If you dig deep enough what you will find coming through again and again on these websites and forums is a critical, judgmental spirit that masks itself as some kind of prophetic voice or watchman on the wall.

Been there, done that and bought the tee-shirt and given enough time I would have made the movie!!!

Oswald Chambers reiterated Jesus' words that if we see a speck in our brothers eye it is because we have a plank in our own. Please, I implore you, stop the criticism, stop pointing out the specks in other peoples eyes and take care of your own eye...your INTERNAL LIFE. By your repeated criticism and mud slinging you show that you have a huge dark whole in your own heart that needs to be filled with the love and mercy of the Savior.

IMHO, that is where you should be focusing your time and energy.

I can attest from bitter experience that if you continue down this road of digging up dirt on others you will end up in a grave and dark place with the Lord. Again, I speak from a place of brokenness and bitter experience.

For those of you who have not entered in but find yourselves stirred up and about to pile on, I cannot tell you strongly enough how much you need to distance yourself from this critical spirit. I do not know where I would be today if I did not hear from the Lord to repent and get away from this spirit altogether. It is infectious and it will not only completely corrupt your own heart but that of your family and those around you too.

And it has no place in a Christ honoring, Christ promoting website like Sermon Index that supposedly has influence on thousands of people. Again my very small and insignificant opinion.

 2016/2/15 13:43


And the HGH use allegations (which are illegal if true) & "drinking lots of Budweiser" statement on national TV more than once aren't "ancient history"

 2016/2/15 13:44


I read the news today, oh boy

 2016/2/15 13:52

Joined: 2010/7/9
Posts: 295
Canton, Michigan


By John Caldwell (Retired Pastor)

I decided many years ago totally to abstain from alcohol, and it is my opinion that all Christians would do well to make the same decision. I believe this issue is important because it relates to a broader, and thus even more significant subject—that of the modern church’s ongoing move toward becoming more and more like the world.

My Bias

In the interest of full disclosure, I am biased. I hate alcohol—not the taste (although to be honest, I hate that too), but what it does to people. The first funeral of a teenager that I conducted was of a young man killed by a drunk driver. I’ve had literally hundreds of counseling sessions with couples and spouses as their marriages teetered on the brink because of alcohol. I can’t count the hours I’ve spent in jails and prisons visiting inmates whose lives have been forever negatively impacted because of crimes they committed while under the influence. Even more hours have been spent in emergency rooms, trauma units, and at hospital bedsides, while ministering to victims of alcohol.

The horror stories I could tell could fill a book: the teenage girl losing her virginity while drinking, the college student brain damaged after a fraternity initiation, the young minister involved in a terrible wreck after having just a couple of beers to relax, and scores of others.

Let me be blunt! I see absolutely no positive argument for something that will make you act like an idiot, smell like a brewery, fight like a fool, impair your motor functions, drain your bank account, give you a hangover, scare your kids, alienate your spouse, make you a danger to your fellow man, and has the potential to enslave you.

I wish I could tell you that all I know about this is from the vantage point of a pastor. Regrettably, I must admit that during my prodigal days drinking was very much a part of my social life, and for the same reason most people start drinking—peer pressure. I wanted to fit in.

I can also tell you the time I decided to quit. It was early one morning when I woke up in the middle of a street in front of a frat house across from the Southwest Missouri State University campus. I decided right there and then that drinking could get you killed. I was right.

The Bible’s Counsel

Before we go any further let me state the obvious. I know that Jesus miraculously created wine as his first public miracle in Cana, and that a person could have consumed enough to get drunk. Yes, Paul told Timothy to drink a little wine for medicinal purposes. It is true that the Bible nowhere forbids the drinking of alcohol, only its abuse to the point of drunkenness. Paul said, “Don’t be drunk with wine, because that will ruin your life” (Ephesians 5:18*). It is also true that many people, including many Christians, drink only in moderation; a glass of wine with their dinner or a cold beer on a hot day. And I’m not suggesting that such will make you descend into the gutter.

But let’s consider the whole counsel of God concerning the use of alcohol. Proverbs 23:29, 30 says: “Who has anguish? Who has sorrow? Who is always fighting? Who is always complaining? Who has unnecessary bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes? It is the one who spends long hours in the taverns, trying out new drinks.”

There are six consequences listed in verse 29, all in the form of a rhetorical question, the first of which is, “Who has anguish?” The Hebrew word for anguish is an expression of despair and impending doom. It is no coincidence that 40 percent of suicide attempts are alcohol related. The wise man goes on to ask the source of sorrow, fighting, complaints, unnecessary bruises, bloodshot eyes; and makes it clear that the source is overindulgence of alcohol.

Most people in the ancient world drank alcohol. The Egyptians and Babylonians were manufacturing beer 3,000 years before Christ. But here’s something you need to know. Alcohol use changed radically in AD 700 when Arab chemists discovered how to distill alcohol, which led to the ability to produce highly potent concentrations. Thus the wine and beer produced previous to that was, for the most part, very low in alcoholic content. You could get drunk, but you had to drink a lot to do so.

However, today, if you buy a bottle of whiskey, liquor, or even wine, the natural fermentation is bolstered by the addition of distilled alcohol. New wine in biblical days had very little alcoholic content, and even aged wine had a low amount compared to today’s standards. Don’t take my word for it. You can easily research it using the Internet.

So-called “adult beverages” are very much a part of American social life. However, the advertising industry doesn’t sell intoxication, but fantasy; it doesn’t sell reality, but fiction. Ads for alcoholic beverages tout happiness, wealth, prestige, sophistication, success, maturity, athletic ability, virility, creativity, and sexual satisfaction—but these are the very things alcohol abuse destroys. Proverbs 23:31, 32 says, “Don’t gaze at the wine, seeing how red it is, how it sparkles in the cup, how smoothly it goes down. For in the end it bites like a poisonous snake; it stings like a viper.”

I haven’t even mentioned that millions of Americans are in bondage to alcohol because of their addiction to it. But listen to the closing verses of Proverbs 23: “You will see hallucinations, and you will say crazy things. You will stagger like a sailor tossed at sea, clinging to a swaying mast. And you will say, ‘They hit me, but I didn’t feel it. I didn’t even know it when they beat me up. When will I wake up so I can look for another drink?’” (vv. 33-35).

A Simple Question, A Larger Concern

Let me ask a simple question: Why should you drink? If you never take the first drink, you’ll never become addicted. If you don’t drink, even if you could handle it, you won’t be a stumbling block to those who can’t handle it (and I believe Paul said something about not causing your brother to stumble). And if you don’t drink, you won’t be supporting an industry that has caused untold heartache for millions of people.

Try a little experiment. Carefully read a city newspaper for the next seven days. Make note of all the stories of tragedy and heartache that somehow involve alcohol. Then, against that backdrop, try to defend its use. A quote often attributed to Abraham Lincoln is, “Alcohol has many defenders, but no defense.”

At the beginning of this article I suggested that this topic is representative of the broader subject of the church becoming more and more conformed to the world. I have a number of preacher friends who are social drinkers. I know of several churches that have changed their policy manuals to allow for social drinking. I’ve even heard it defended as a tool for evangelism (I wish I had the space to deal with that one).

But let’s be honest. Is it not simply an attempt to fit in with the world? What happened to “Don’t become so well-adjusted to your culture that you fit into it without even thinking . . . ”? (Romans 12:2, The Message).

America’s No. 1 problem drug is not an illegal drug like cocaine, marijuana, meth, or heroine, as big a problem as they are. The No. 1 problem drug is a lethal one—alcohol. It causes more deaths and more addiction than any other drug. More than 55 percent of highway deaths are alcohol related. There are more than 17 million alcoholics in America, and that number is rising. And it is impossible to quantify the death, disability, psychosis, and relational harm done by alcohol.

No, the Bible doesn’t say, “Thou shalt not drink,” and you may be able to handle it. But what about your children who are introduced to the use of alcohol by your example and who are not able to handle it? I can point to many parents who would give anything to be able to go back and become abstainers if only for the sake of their kids.

Taking all this into consideration, isn’t it best to remember the words of Paul? “You say, ‘I am allowed to do anything’—but not everything is good for you. You say, ‘I am allowed to do anything’—but not everything is beneficial. Don’t be concerned for your own good but for the good of others” (1 Corinthians 10:23, 24).

The bottom line is this: the question really isn’t CAN A CHRISTIAN DRINK? Rather, it is: SHOULD A CHRISTIAN DRINK?

David Fella

 2016/2/15 14:25Profile

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5485


I am amazed at how easily the very words of our Lord are dismissed out of hand.

Jesus said "Don't judge." He didn't lay out 100s of exceptions- He just said "Don't." In fact, He said if you judge then YOU will be judged. He did not lay out 100s of exceptions as to why you might not be judged if you judge. He just said you will be judged.



 2016/2/15 14:40Profile


You are taking Jesus words out of context.
John 7: 14

Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly."

New Living Translation
Look beneath the surface so you can judge correctly."

English Standard Version
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

You are not the judge of those who make righteous judgements

 2016/2/15 14:45

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5485


In John 7:24, in context, Jesus is telling the Pharisees not to be nit-pickers.


 2016/2/15 16:08Profile

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