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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is the Church Israel?

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 Julius

I wrote a post to you below, where I try so hard to reach out, and seek SOME common ground in the Lord, and you just ignored it, instead regurgitating the same replacement theology error.

Narrowpath is EXACTLY correct in their forthtelling, you are here to sow mayhem and diviseness,

I cant tell whether this is mental illness, being used of satan, or a combination of both in your make up.

as a Jew who follows Messiah Jesus, I adjudge what you OPINE to be ABSOLUTELY non-Scriptural and twisted Scripture, and to quote Shoah(Holocaust)deniers?

only cowards do that in the relative anonymity and SAFETY of the internet.

 2015/12/4 7:20









 Re: Julius

Thanks for reaching out to me, Neil. I will listen to Lenny's message.

Heard David, his son speak not long ago and my family and I had lunch with him afterwards. I really appreciated his spirit. Very good fellowship.

 2015/12/4 7:46
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265


 Re: Blessed or cursed... in Christ or in Adam



He that believeth on the Son, hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him . John 3:36

He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater: for this is the testimony of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God, hath made him a liar, because he hath not believed the testimony that God gave of his Son. 11And this is the testimony, that God hath given to us eternal life: and this life is in his Son. 12He that hath the Son, hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God, hath not life. 1 John 5:9-12

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 3:10

For as many as are of the works of the law, are under the curse: for it is written, Accursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. Gal. 3:10


"He that believeth on him is not condemned,.... Whether Jew or Gentile, because a believer is openly in Christ; and there is no condemnation to those that are in him: and though the sentence of death passed upon all in Adam, and judgment came upon all men to condemnation in him; yet this sentence being executed on Christ, the surety of his people, who has been condemned to death, and has suffered it in their stead, his death is a security to them from all condemnation: and they are delivered by him from the curse and condemnation of the law: and having in conversion openly passed from death to life, they shall never enter into condemnation; and this is the happy case of every one that believes in Christ:

but he that believeth not is condemned already. The Persic version renders it, "from the beginning"; he remains under the sentence of condemnation passed in Adam upon him; the law accuses him, and pronounces him guilty before God; he is under the curse of it, and it is a ministration of condemnation and death to him; nor has he any thing to secure him from its charge, curse, and condemnation: this must be understood of one that is a final unbeliever, or that lives, and dies, in a state of impenitence, and unbelief:

because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God; whom God has sent to be the Saviour of lost sinners, and to deliver them from wrath to come; and there is no other name but his, whereby men can be saved; so that such that do not believe in him, must be damned." John G.

Thus saith the LORD in His Word quoted. And according to His Word, any and all who are not in Christ are "condemned", "not of God", "children of the devil", "cursed and under the curse", "make God a liar", "abiding under God's wrath."

According to the Word the only blessed people are those who are in Christ. All others are not so but rather in the condition stated above.

 2015/12/4 7:53Profile
timg
Member



Joined: 2008/8/23
Posts: 100


 Re: Julius

Maybe I am just not seeing it. The topic of Israel and the church was brought up and Julius is one of the responders.many disagree with his opinions and I do on some of them. He has used scripture and most have resorted to name calling. It is vital to know what you believe and why you believe it. This is a setting to challenge those beliefs. I stand by my statement that truth can only be strengthened when challenged. Foundations built on sand will fall. If this topic is not important to you simply don't enter the discussion. If you think it is simply be kind and charitable to all. Let us seek the truth of God in love. Blessing to all

 2015/12/4 7:57Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Everyone is accusing Julius of heresy but the Idea that the Church is the true Israel of God is from my research so far the understanding that was held by all Christians before the 12th century and most Christians before Darby and the 19th century.

David Bercot is an expert in early church history as many know. He promotes this book by Mennonite Steve Yoder :
My Beloved Israel : Steve Yoder.

"In this well-researched book, Yoder discusses the Old and New Testament prophecies about Israel. He sets forth and defends the prophetic view held by the early Christians, the Anabaptists, the Reformers, and in fact all Christians before the 19th century. He describes the persecution of the Jewish people by “Christian” governments and their inhuman treatment by Hitler. He also explains the history of the Zionist movement that led to the creation of the modern state of Israel. He argues that there is only one Israel of God—comprised of both Jews and Gentiles who are children of Abraham through their faith in Christ." http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/product3404.html

David Bercot has also done a teaching lesson on the Israel in Prophecy that I have not yet listened to :

"What the Early Christians Believed About Israel" : " in Prophecy. Millions of Christians have it all figured out how various Old Testament prophecies are being fulfilled today—or how they will be fulfilled in the future—through the nation of Israel. But are we understanding those prophecies correctly?" http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/product124.html




 2015/12/4 9:17Profile









 Re:

Baloney is baloney no matter how you slice it

 2015/12/4 10:13
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

Carmine, it sure would be nice to see a private forum here,
were us members that have been so discouraged by these type threads, would not have to be exposed to this. I guess this is some folks definition of edification. Whats personally really sad for me, as soon as I see a thread like this at the top, because it's hard to miss, it just discourages me from reading anything here. A lot of us readers come here to be encouraged by the word, not discouraged by these same threads. How long has this battle been going on? has to be months now.


_________________
Bill

 2015/12/4 11:20Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1522
Germany NRW

 Re:

The issue is not the bible verses Julius21 and other fellows cite. They are of course Gods word but abused for other purposes.

It all has to do with the geographic and ethnical nation and people of Israel in God's Heilsgeschichte or history of salvation.

They all fail to see that God still has a purpose for his chosen people the Jews, as ignorant and fallen as they are, to come to find their Messiah at last. All Christians and messianic Jews should pursue that and pray for the peace of Jerusalem and the salvation of the Jews just like apostle Paul and I mean geographical Jerusalem, though some of them call it Al-Quds.

Replacement Theology in its more extreme form debunks the importance of the Jewish nation and believe they have been superseded completely and finally by the church. The go so far as accusing Israel of apartheid, fascism, racism and join ranks with their surrounding enemies. They fail to see that God has kept them alive all through the church age and will join us with them in the end in Christ.

As I said before, God has no covenant with the church, we gentiles have become children of Abraham, joint-heirs with Isaak and Jacob partakers of the sure mercies of David, engrafted into the holy olive tree through Christ the Messiah.

Replacement theology see it the other way round. That is the crux.

Julius21 freely quotes from these extremist sources without any remorse of the insult he causes people of Jewish heritage and concerned gentile Christians. He completely fails to understand the gist of Romans 11.

What would the average American think if someone called for the expulsion of all but the American Indians because they took the land of the native people?

 2015/12/4 13:20Profile









 Re:

Mr Bill

These false doctrines left unchecked cause harm to God's
people These few individuals obviously have an an agenda underlying their supposed "theological" concerns. They do not get their doctrine from the Bible
but from some twisted interpretations of other writers.

You can see what this has done to the messianic brethren here,
Why let them continue in this obvious twisting of God's eternal Word?
This continual bashing of Israel is not just false doctrine but rather
an attempt to demonize, ostracize and abandon God's purposes.
Of course they will fail.

 2015/12/4 13:57
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
As I said before, God has no covenant with the church, we gentiles have become children of Abraham, joint-heirs with Isaak and Jacob partakers of the sure mercies of David, engrafted into the holy olive tree through Christ the Messiah.



Really? God has no covenant with His Church? Do you not take the following verses literally? Or do they apply only to ethnic Jews and not to Gentiles as well?

“For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”-Matthew 26:28

“Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.”-Luke 22:20

“who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”-2 Corinthians 3:6

“And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.”-Hebrews 9:15

Sadly, many Christians today devalue God’s New Covenant with His people (made up of Jew and Gentile) and seek to hand it over entirely to ethnic Israel. Yet God’s New Covenant with His people will continue to stand despite all the assaults of the enemy. God’s covenant people, His Church, are not just part of some minor parenthesis in this age. Christ loved His Church, His Body and Bride, and gave Himself up for her. His Church (again, made up of Jew and Gentile) is the apple of His eye, His chosen people, His holy nation, in whom He is glorified. Let God be true and every man a liar.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/12/4 14:12Profile





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