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 Re:

I think you have been poisoned against me, but your decision is probably the best thing for you.

Welcome back to SI, by the way.

 2015/11/2 12:22









 Re:

Niel,

By the way, I only hold the same view as your Messianic brothers in Christ at Messianic Good News

I hold this same exact view. Do you regard them in the same way as you regard me and others on SI that hold this same view? There are many others here that hold this same view, but if I am to be the "punching bag", then that is ok with me.

Why don't you read some of these articles and see if you have any agreement with your brothers and if you don't, are they still not brothers? Will you still not be a brother to them?

http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/christian-zionism/

1) ABRAHAM OUR FATHER – JERUSALEM OUR MOTHER
2) The Battle over Jerusalem
3) The Heavenly Jerusalem
4) From Exile to the Promised Land
5) IN DEFENCE OF THE GOSPEL – a response to John Hagee’s “In Defense of Israel”
6) Jerusalem Countdown – Fear or Faith?
7) The sins of the Fathers
8) “I will bless those who bless you”
9) How will Israel be delivered?
10) Who is my brother?
11) Unbelieving Israel – Victim or rebel

 2015/11/2 12:44









 Fundamentalism Versus Apostasy

from Dr Ian Paisley

http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=6863

 2015/11/2 12:58









 Messianic Good news are not what they seem

by Dr. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, Th.M., Ph.D. November 15, 2008 – Ariel Ministries

Regarding Messianic Good News false assumptions about Dispensationalism and Israel

It starts with:

Let me begin by simply defining the essence of Dispensationalism that would be held by Dispensationalists across the board. The essence of Dispensationalism is a consistent literal interpretation of Scripture, unless the text and context clearly indicates otherwise. It can be summarized in the simple Golden Rule of Interpretation as formulated by Dr. David L. Cooper: “When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicates clearly otherwise.” With that rule is a corollary principle: “A text apart from its context is a pretext”. Therefore, literal interpretation does not deny the existence of symbols, or the existence of figures of speech, which all languages have. But in all languages, including English, we take what is written to be literal unless there is something that clearly indicates otherwise.
1
Out of the first principle arises a second important principle: A consistent distinction between Israel and the Church. It denies the Church is “New Israel” or “Spiritual Israel” and denies that there is any passage in the New Testament where the term “Israel” is ever used of the Church. In fact, the term “Israel” appears exactly 73 times in the New Testament and not once does it refer to the Church. It will sometimes refer to all Jews in general and sometimes specifically to Jewish believers, but never to Gentile believers and never to the Church. Therefore, Dispensationalism affirms that what God promised to Israel He will keep to Israel and what He promised to the Church He will keep to the Church and the Church does not replace Israel in God’s covenantal program. Therefore, whatever promises have not been fulfilled up to the present time will be fulfilled in the future. Many assume that the unique mark of Dispensationalism is the Pretribulational Rapture, but that is only a result of the second principle. Furthermore, there are many Pretribulationalists that are not Dispensationalists such as the Bible Presbyterian Church denomination that is non-dispensational but is Pretribulational.
Thus Pretribulationalism is not unique to Dispensationalism as many seem to think.

and goes for 38 pages. Good stuff

http://www.ariel.org/news/news-mgn.pdf

 2015/11/2 13:24









 Re: Fundamentalism Versus Apostasy

"The Nazis used Martin Luther's book, On the Jews and Their Lies (1543), to claim a moral righteousness for their ideology. Luther even went so far as to advocate the murder of those Jews who refused to convert to Christianity, writing that "we are at fault in not slaying them".[37]

Archbishop Robert Runcie has asserted that: "Without centuries of Christian antisemitism, Hitler's passionate hatred would never have been so fervently echoed...because for centuries Christians have held Jews collectively responsible for the death of Jesus. On Good Friday Jews, have in times past, cowered behind locked doors with fear of a Christian mob seeking 'revenge' for deicide. Without the poisoning of Christian minds through the centuries, the Holocaust is unthinkable."[1]:21 The dissident Catholic priest Hans Küng has written that "Nazi anti-Judaism was the work of godless, anti-Christian criminals. But it would not have been possible without the almost two thousand years' pre-history of 'Christian' anti-Judaism..."[2]:169

The document Dabru Emet was issued by over 220 rabbis and intellectuals from all branches of Judaism in 2000 as a statement about Jewish-Christian relations. This document states,


"Nazism was not a Christian phenomenon. Without the long history of Christian anti-Judaism and Christian violence against Jews, Nazi ideology could not have taken hold nor could it have been carried out. Too many Christians participated in, or were sympathetic to, Nazi atrocities against Jews. Other Christians did not protest sufficiently against these atrocities. But Nazism itself was not an inevitable outcome of Christianity."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_antisemitism

 2015/11/2 13:28









 Re:

Yeah, Neil, No one here supports Hitler, or Luther in what he said. We are all glad he separated from Rome but you can't blame all Christians for Luther's view on Jews.

Here is a more balanced article from one of your Jewish brothers in Christ, Peter Cohen.

The Sunday Times recently published an editorial (17 June 2007) by the Chief Rabbi of South Africa, Warren Goldstein, entitled, “Look again: Israel is the victim, not the root of all evil”. In the sub-title to his article Goldstein writes, “Blaming the Middle Eastern conflict on the Jewish state is an error that could see many people unwittingly complicit in one of history’s worst injustices”. He poses the question, “What if, in siding against Israel, the world is siding against the only beacon of freedom and democracy in the Middle East, thereby endangering us all because the fate of the Jews is often a sign portending the future?”

The Scriptures says: “Fear the LORD and the King, my son, and do not join with the rebellious, for those two will send sudden destruction upon them, and who knows what calamities they can bring? These also are sayings of the wise: To show partiality in judging is not good: Whoever says to the guilty, “You are innocent”– peoples will curse him and nations denounce him. But it will go well with those who convict the guilty, and rich blessing will come upon them” (Proverbs 24:21-25).

The Holy Spirit convicts the whole world of guilt in regard to sin because men do not believe in Jesus the Messiah (John 16:8).

In his article, Goldstein seeks to justify modern Zionism on both religious and political grounds, suggesting that the world ought to side with Israel in order to support democracy in the Middle East and on the basis that God promised the land to Abraham and his descendants forever.

He suggests that Israel (with the one of the most powerful armies in the world), is the innocent and righteous victim in the Middle East. But even Ben Gurion acknowledged that declaring a Jewish State would provoke hostility: “We are the aggressors, and they defend themselves…Palestine is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.”

Goldstein suggests that the Balfour declaration recognised, in his words, “the injustice of the destruction of ancient Israel by the Romans and the forced removal of the Jewish people.” However, Jesus warned his followers to flee from Jerusalem when they saw it being surrounded by the Roman armies because it was the days of vengeance for those who had failed to recognize the time of God’s coming to them (see Luke 19:44 and 21:20-24). In other words, for the disciples to have sided with the unbelieving Jews in AD 70 would have made them complicit in the rebellion of those who rejected and opposed the Messiah. The Lord said, “I have installed my King on Zion, my holy hill” and concerning this King, He also says, “You will rule over the nations with an iron sceptre” (Psalm 2:6;9). This means that God himself rejects democracy, (i.e. the power of the people), when it comes to electing his eternal King whom he has established upon his throne.

It is not a matter of taking sides. Both are in rebellion against God’s Anointed King. If the rebellion brought about God’s vengeance in 70 AD should we now expect God’s blessing on those who remain in rebellion? We stand on the authority of God’s word alone: We do not wage war as the world does… We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God… (2 Cor. 10:3)

Goldstein said, “…the fate of the Jews is often a sign portending the future”.

The fate of the unbelieving Jews of the generation that rejected Jesus Christ, which culminated in the desolation of Jerusalem and the prolonged exile of the Jews from the land in 70 AD, was indeed a sign portending the future judgment that will befall all who persist in their rebellion against God’s Anointed King! The apostle Paul said, “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honour and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favouritism” (Romans 2:7-11).

Goldstein suggests that “the apartheid of the Middle East is really one directed against the Jews.” He ends his article with an appeal for peace between warring “brothers”, on the basis that both Jews and Arabs are children of Abraham. To be true children of Abrahamis to have the same faith as Abraham, faith in God’s promise of Redemption through the Messiah-Redeemer. The only way that these warring brothers will be reconciled to one another is when they are reconciled through Christ who has demolished apartheid i.e. (separation based on the flesh) – For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility (Eph. 2:14).

All people, whether Jew or Gentile are commanded to repent (Acts 17:30), not of complicity in siding with or against Israel, but of complicity in history’s worst injustice, rebellion against God’s anointed King, for which every human being will be called to give account:

“Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him,[Jesus Christ]” (Psalm 2:10-12).

http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/unbelieving-israel-victim-or-rebel/

 2015/11/2 13:33









 Re:

Terrible article, full of distortions and lies and scripture twisting.
Par for the course.

For example he writes

The fate of the unbelieving Jews of the generation that rejected Jesus Christ, which culminated in the desolation of Jerusalem and the prolonged exile of the Jews from the land in 70 AD, was indeed a sign portending the future judgment that will befall all who persist in their rebellion against God’s Anointed King! The apostle Paul said, “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honour and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favouritism” (Romans 2:7-11).

Not true, God has regathered the Jews from exile and will continue to fullfill his
eternal plan for them. They will be grafted in the body as Romans 11 clearly states

 2015/11/2 13:41









 Re:

Give us some specifics, Rev without taking them out of context.

By the way, I need to get some work done so I will have to join up with you later. I am glad you have decided to dialogue, Niel.

 2015/11/2 13:42
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE: ///Other Christians did not protest sufficiently against these atrocities.///


But Many Did. Even to the point of giving up there life to stand against those atrocities, And many of them , nay, most of the : "ecumenical movements most responsible for aiding Jewish refugees fleeing Nazism" such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer where considered theologicaly supersessionist"


"Bonhoeffer's defense of the Jews, however, was based on Christian supersessionism - the Christian belief that Christianity had superseded Judaism as the new chosen people of God. Despite his outspoken defense of victims of Nazi persecution, Bonhoeffer still maintained, on a religious level, that the "Jewish question" would ultimately be solved through Jewish conversion to Christianity. The Church strongly advocated this view, as did the ecumenical movements most responsible for aiding Jewish refugees fleeing Nazism."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Bonhoeffer.html

 2015/11/2 13:47Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by proudpapa on 2015/11/2 13:47:48

RE: ///Other Christians did not protest sufficiently against these atrocities.///


But Many Did. Even to the point of giving up there life to stand against those atrocities, And many of them , nay, most of the : "ecumenical movements most responsible for aiding Jewish refugees fleeing Nazism" such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer where considered theologicaly supersessionist"


"Bonhoeffer's defense of the Jews, however, was based on Christian supersessionism - the Christian belief that Christianity had superseded Judaism as the new chosen people of God. Despite his outspoken defense of victims of Nazi persecution, Bonhoeffer still maintained, on a religious level, that the "Jewish question" would ultimately be solved through Jewish conversion to Christianity. The Church strongly advocated this view, as did the ecumenical movements most responsible for aiding Jewish refugees fleeing Nazism."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Bonhoeffer.html



I did not know that, PP.

 2015/11/2 14:01





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