SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : General Topics : Letter from Stephen Sizer to Jacob Prasch

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 Next Page )
PosterThread
crusader
Member



Joined: 2006/2/22
Posts: 410
Australia:

 Re:

Hi Rev___Enue

I was looking at the discussions to see what brothers and sisters where saying on the topic as i don't have any sway either side of the issue but it is very evident by your posts that this is an issue that is close to your heart and have been wounded by conversations about this in the past. your stance on this issue on this site seems to be anger and control about what people want to say which is not allowing people the freedom to discuss the issues without being attacked.

personally, i like to see what all sides are saying as it is then that i am able to make a mature christian choice as to the information provided. It is through the fruits of the spirit that readers can see the truth and can reason over issues in love and peace.

if you use these responses to the secular world it wouldn't advance the Gospel in fact it would only cause offense and deepen the hatred.

I'm sorry if my reply is wrong in anyway but it is how i am seeing the responses. some of the other reply has only added fuel on the fire which is normally a good sign that the comments has moved out of the realm of spirit and into the realm of flesh where Satan wants it.

I personally would like to see your point of view as it will bring balance to the topic or another facet but not under manner in which you are bringing it. i value your understanding on the topic.


_________________
karl rashleigh

 2015/10/31 6:27Profile









 Re:

Hello Karl

Thank you for your kind reply.
It does bother me when religion is used to attack any race or nationality.
Especially Jewish people and even Italians. One of whom I am.
At this point I well let God defend his people and take my hands off. He will separate the wheat from the chaff in his due time.

God bless you

 2015/10/31 12:01
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Brothers and sisters, it has been grieving for me to see a certain form of racism (anti-Gentilism if you will) being exhibited in these forums as of late. This is one reason I withdrew from the forums for a while.

It has been supposed that one is anti-Semitic on account of holding to the view that there is no Jew and Gentile division in God's economy both in this age and in the age to come. Multitudes of Scriptures have been referenced and talked about in a civil manner to present our case in these threads, yet the accusation of anti-Semitism has continued regardless of how reasonable and civil we've endeavored to be; some of the accusations being more severe than others.

But I guess this shouldn't surprise me too much as this was something the early church too had to deal with. In the New Testament we get the impression that Jews at times were really tempted to look down on Gentiles and likewise Gentiles were tempted to look down on Jews, and Paul in particular had to labor to promote and keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

As brother Julius21 already pointed out (don't remember which thread), when it came down to defending the unity of the Church, in Galatians 2 we see that Paul did not hold back in rebuking Peter for taking sides with Jewish Christians against Gentile Christians. Peter was giving the impression that there still existed a certain type of division between Jews and Gentiles in God's economy and that Jews still had a superior status as was the case under the Old Covenant. May we all learn the lesson taught there.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/10/31 12:44Profile









 Re:

So true, Oracio. "Blessed are the peacemakers". Jesus preached a Gospel of Love and reconciliation to all men and then died a substitutionary death for their sins.

Christians should not associate with anyone who thinks they have a divine unction to bring about the Kingdom of God by fleshly force. Jesus chastised His disciples for thinking this was the way to achieve His Kingdom.

We have been saying all along that Christians must rise above the political and military engagements in this world just as Christ did, who brought a message of freedom from bondage, but not the bondage of the Egyptians, Romans, Germans or Palestinians but rather a freedom from the bondage of sin. If we are not set free from the bondage of sin, then we are not set free from true bondage.

Let us preach the Gospel of reconciliation and peace to all men seeking to make them brothers in the Lord rather than brothers in the philosophies of this world. And let them see that we support only Jesus Christ and His Kingdom and not any kingdoms of this world.

 2015/10/31 13:29
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2143


 Racism and anti-Gentilism

Two sides of the coin. If it's wrong to accuse those as anti-semitic (they are not) who disagree with the pre-mill view that holds to Israel having a distinct place in a millennium to come, perhaps it's also wrong to accuse those who believe so of advocating racism and anti-Gentilism. It's not racism at all.

I don't see where folks have argued there is a division between Jew and Gentile in God's economy since both groups belonging to the body of Christ has been acknowledged more than once.

Tha's all.

Thank you.


_________________
David Winter

 2015/10/31 13:38Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3287
Texas

 Re:

I think this scripture below about covers everyone that don't quite understand everything, and might possibly be lead into confusion. I think the word is saying here, "don't let your finite mind beat you up". "Mr. Bill's Interpretation"

For now [in this time of imperfection] we see in a mirror dimly [a blurred reflection, a riddle, an enigma], but then [when the time of perfection comes we will see reality] face to face. Now I know in part [just in fragments], but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known [by God].
1 Corinthians 13:12


_________________
Bill

 2015/10/31 13:39Profile









 Re: Racism and anti-Gentilism

Quote:
by docs on 2015/10/31 13:38:48

Two sides of the coin. If it's wrong to accuse those as anti-semitic (they are not) who disagree with the pre-mill view that holds to Israel having a distinct place in a millennium to come, perhaps it's also wrong to accuse those who believe so of advocating racism and anti-Gentilism. It's not racism at all.

I don't see where folks have argued there is a division between Jew and Gentile in God's economy since both groups belonging to the body of Christ has been acknowledged more than once.

Tha's all.

Thank you.



Doc, you are right and I agree with you. There are extremes on both sides. Not believing in dispensationalism or Christian Zionism does not make one anti-semitic and believing in dispensationalism and Christian Zionism does not necessarily make one a racist. And at the same time there are groups on both sides that are anti-semitic and racist. So, as I have said they are murky waters filled with terrible mixture.

It is always safe for the Christian to walk as Christ walked staying above the fray of political and military ideaologies of this world. We must always take the side of Christ.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the "Good News" to ALL the nations. It is the Gospel to the Jews and the Gospel to the Gentiles.

‘He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit’ (Gal 3:14).

The Kingdom of God is the "rulership of God", the gift of the Holy Spirit to rule in our hearts.

In Paul’s understanding then: the Blessing Promised to Abraham = the Kingdom of God.

The fulfillment did not take place in the most obvious way. As Christians we know the fulfillment can only be seen by faith (without which, it is impossible to please God).

What the NT does not talk about is also very important to notice: The unbelieving Jews at Antioch could have raised many objections to Paul’s claim, but notice they did not raise these objections:
• the Land promised to Abraham is still under Roman authority, we have no autonomy or security!
• most of the people to whom the Land was promised are still in the diaspora, they have not received it!
• we are having the same socio-economic problems as before!
• everything continues the same as it always has!
• where then is the fulfilment of the Promise – we don’t see it!

“Brothers, children of Abraham … We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus” (Acts 13:26-33).

Paul claims that the resurrection of Christ has fulfilled the promise.

And we have this from Ephesians:
‘His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to His eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord… ‘
‘ … that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise – in Christ Jesus … ‘ (Eph 3:10-11, 3:6)

Again, a final confirmation from Galatians 3: ‘He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit’ (Gal 3:14).

Like Abraham, and through Abraham, the nations would be restored into the Rule of God.

But what about the Land?

The promise of the Land is for the Resurrection. Not for the earthly realm in which thieves break in and steal, and moths and rust corrode and destroy.

Peter writes to the children of Abraham and tells them:

‘Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade – kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time’ (1 Pet. 1:3-5).

By destroying sin and death, God has fulfilled the promise to Abraham! Not by securing the Land, but by securing the Resurrection that must precede the giving of the Land!

Now that Jesus has reversed the consequences of Adam’s sin, and restored the Rule of God, Abraham can be raised on the last day and together with us, he will receive – himself, according to the promise – the Land ‘as an eternal possession!’

‘Brothers, children of Abraham … We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus ….’ (Acts 13:26-33)

According to the Dispensational view, the Jews have their origin in Abraham, not in the promise to Abraham. They define Israel by race and physical descent. By this definition, it follows that those who rejected God’s revelation in Christ, continue, in spite of their unfaithfulness, to be part of Israel and continue to be the rightful heirs to the Promise.

This brings us to a further critical error of Dispensationalism which, contrary to New Testament, teaches that the Promise to Abraham has NOT YET been fulfilled. And since it has NOT YET been fulfilled, God remains obligated to fulfill it in the future. Most would in fact say that God has now begun to fulfill the Promise, since the modern State of Israel was established in 1948.

In this way, Dispensationalism also subverts the New Testament teaching that Jews and Gentiles are “heirs together … of the same promise” and “sharers together in the same inheritance”.

This is from John Hagee’s influential book Jerusalem Countdown:
‘Israel has been given an earthly Kingdom with an earthly Jerusalem now located in Israel. The Church has been given a New Jerusalem located in heaven.’

Hebrews 11:16 says that “they [the Jewish Patriarchs] were longing for a better country – a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.” It also says “only together with us, will they receive what was promised.” [i.e. in the resurrection]

The reason the dangers of Dispensationalism are not obvious to many is because Dispensationalism has never expressly denied the Gospel of the New Testament. Many Dispensational teachers will even emphasise that “there is no salvation, except through faith in Jesus.”

Rather than an outright denial of the New Testament Gospel, Dispensationalism undermines its principal claims and then ring-fences them within a defined era, or dispensation, which it refers to as the Church Age or the Time of the Gentiles.

So, we have a misconstrued New Testament gospel which belongs to the Church Age. And we then have the end-time salvation Plan gospel for the modern Jew, for the new dispensation.

The New Testament era is disparagingly called a ‘parenthesis’ – in other words, a side show! The time that has elapsed between the coming of Jesus and the present day, is considered an incidental phase to God’s Divine Plan, which lasts only until God will get back to His main line of business, which concerns itself with a racially defined Israel.


Quotes taken from: THE GOOD NEWS TO ISRAEL & THE NATIONS (if you want to read the rest).
http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/the-good-news-to-israel-the-nations/

 2015/10/31 14:06
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re: Racism and anti-Gentilism

Quote:
Two sides of the coin. If it's wrong to accuse those as anti-semitic (they are not) who disagree with the pre-mill view that holds to Israel having a distinct place in a millennium to come, perhaps it's also wrong to accuse those who believe so of advocating racism and anti-Gentilism. It's not racism at all.



I was referring to having a certain type of sentiment in which one is quick to call Christians Jew haters on account of disagreeing with their view on the Jew and Gentile issue; a sentiment that has no patience for those that disagree even if they disagree respectfully or civilly. I am convinced that that type of sentiment does indeed stem from a certain form of racism, especially if said persons happen to be Jewish themselves. Those that hold to this form of racism basically try to cover themselves by quickly accusing others of being Jew haters for disagreeing. I don't think it's that difficult for us to see this type of sentiment/racism here as of late.

Quote:
I don't see where folks have argued there is a division between Jew and Gentile in God's economy since both groups belonging to the body of Christ has been acknowledged more than once.



Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. Our view is that there are not two separate peoples of God with two separate plans but only one people of God made up of Jew and Gentile both in this age and in the age to come. We do not believe that Scripture teaches that there is a separate plan for ethnic Israel, even if said plan includes Gentiles. Again, we believe that Scripture teaches only one plan for one people of God, namely spiritual Israel which is made up of both Jew and Gentile. Hope that helps to clarify things a bit ;-)


_________________
Oracio

 2015/10/31 14:26Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1093
Germany NRW

 Re:

Julius21 said

[Sometimes I wonder if the UN and Britain did a grave disservice to the Jewish people and should have left well enough alone and let the Jewish people remain as "strangers and pilgrims" in this world. I wonder if dispersed amongst all the countries as they were, if many more of them would have found the Lord. We may have really hurt them thinking we were helping them. Of course, I don't know what the UN's motive was, but it is rarely a good one. ]

I think you are giving it away here, Julius. Do you think it was Britain and the UN who gave the Jews a homeland contrary to the will of God? And even Britain let down Israel badly in the process and suffered nearly four decades of post war economic dearth.

Weren't there enough OT promises given that prophesied a reinstation of Israel as a national state? like Isaiah 66:8

In saying so you are trading arms with those who deny Israel the right to exist as a sovereign state.

Stephen Sizer is so dangerous because he keeps a humble good guy facade on the outside but he did a lot of subversive work to drive the anti-zionist agenda.

Why did you post this article first and then admitted "I am just learning about Stephen Sizer"

Jacob Praasch who I know in person wanted to take on Stephen Sizer in a debate and I am sure Jacob would have shred him in peaces. He is a brilliant mind and very well versed all matters concerning Judeo-Christian eschatology, Judaism, Talmud-Tora, Midrash, Semitic languages and all the rest of it.
Unfortunately his style of discourse and unrestrained rant does disservice to the cause and makes some of his enemies appear more commendable.

David Pawson, whom I also personally know, wrote a book in response that I would like to recommend here. There is also a YouTube link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAmKZD1eYxA

David Pawson is a respected bible teacher, apologetic and and authority on Israel and the church by a broad spectrum of Christian institutions in Britain and beyond.

http://davidpawson.org/books/defending-christian-zionism/

You would be surprised to find that David Pawson does not hold the dispensational stand either.

 2015/10/31 15:01Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE: ///Weren't there enough OT promises given that prophesied a reinstation of Israel as a national state? like Isaiah 66:8///

What we are saying is that we are not convinced that Israels reestablishment, is what those scriptures are referring too.

Wesley's Notes for Isaiah 66:8

66:8 For - As soon as the voice of the gospel put the church of the Jews into her travail, in Christ's and the Apostles time, it presently brought forth.


 2015/10/31 15:19Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy