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Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re: Oracio,

Oracio,

I have not posted on here for a couple of days as I do not want to perpetuate this discussion that was going nowhere. However I just want to clarify something regarding accusations, so this is my last post on this.

You have to accept that there were many things written by both sides of this argument that were uncalled for. You make it sound like it was all one sided.

PP correctly stated that there were two original topics posted. First by Docs and the one I posted on the film about anti-Semitism. It was on this one that we saw accusations being posted right from the start. I just posted the link with no real comment and was content to leave it for folk to watch and judge themselves. Immediately Julius posted a provocative reply, before even watching the film. He accused Michael Brown of being caught in a cult! He then went on to post incessantly, before even watching the film out and afterward making more accusations.
Some of these accusations were that people that supported the re-birth of Israel were Christian Zionist, Hebrew Roots Movement and were even responsible for the deaths of thousands of people in the wars between Israel and the arabs. The makers of the film were also accused of having a sinister agenda. He even went on to say it would have been better if Israel had never become a nation in 1948 and the Jews had stayed where they were.

If you go back and read these threads from the beginning you can easily see and verify these things and see how even with these accusations right at the beginning the responses to Julius were measured and gracious. However he persisted in posting more and more until he got the response he did. Then later on we get different types of posts, claiming he actually supports Israel having a homeland and has a heart for the Jews, etc, etc. So he now becomes the victim and everyone against him the villains, just like Docs posted selected quotes above, but forgot the ones I have highlighted. Even you, Oracio repeated the conspiracy theory of Israel and 9/11 to your shame. Why would you do that on a thread that was already on fire!

It will be seen as obvious to many who was the main contributor and incessant poster on this topic and fanned the flames with uncalled for accusations. If there is a need for repentance apology it needs to start there.


_________________
Dave

 2015/11/3 10:22Profile









 David Winter

as you laud and bless your brothers for their civility, I;m going to quote Julius from the fourth post he wrote in this thread, I will not comment on these quotes, but instead ask that when you read these comments, maybe lense them thru the heart of a Jew who follows Messiah Jesus, and ask yourself, might this man find these comments, offensive, and just plain wrong?

Julius wrote:

"Sometimes I wonder if the UN and Britain did a grave disservice to the Jewish people and should have left well enough alone and let the Jewish people remain as "strangers and pilgrims" in this world. I wonder if dispersed amongst all the countries as they were, if many more of them would have found the Lord. We may have really hurt them thinking we were helping them. Of course, I don't know what the UN's motive was, but it is rarely a good one.

Orthodox Jews are against Zionism, which I find very interesting. My question, is why didn't the UN and Britain respect the wishes of the religious Jews and instead they went ahead and set up a secular nation? How can Orthodox Jews be anti-semitic? You would think they know better than the godless UN or godless Britain. Do you think Religious Jews in Israel are traitorous? How could religious Jews be traitorous to a secular nation?

Neturei Karta oppose the so-called "State of Israel" not because it operates secularly, but because the entire concept of a sovereign Jewish state is contrary to Jewish Law. Is a sovereign Jewish State contrary to Christian law? We don't have Christian Law, we just have Christ. So, why did Britain butt in against the desires of the religious Jews living in Palestine prior to 1948? These are earnest questions, I don't know why."

i'm have real work to attend to on my ranch, and I don't have the RAM to discuss how offensive even just terming Israel as "so-called" is to me. Yes David, this Jew has a ranch, and I am a crack marksman, iron sight, not scope, and yes, before dawn, I am in the Word, and in prayer everyday, and yes, I can process a steer in a day, by myself, I can takedown a shagbark hickory by myself, biscuit it up, and split it for firewood before the sun goes down, I could tell you how as a 7 year old entering the synagogue for Hebrew and Torah instructions, my heart leapt because God has always been SO REAL to me, how I longed to Aliyah to Israel and serve my entire life in Aman, which is the mil-intel wing of the IDF, but first graduated from the Defense Language Institute at 18 years old and three months in the USN, which I believe I am the youngest ever to do so, Korean language and be entrusted that day with a top secret/codeword clearance, sent to Korea to do serve the nation of MY BIRTH, did my four years , got out, but did not Aliyah in 82, because I felt uncomfortable about "Operation Litani", but in 88, with my sons mother we were three weeks from moving to Kibbutz Degania, only to be offered a job here, most people only dream of, and took that easy way, and that money, because all my childhood I was poor? I don't feel good about that at all, because I knew I was one of the men to be on the wall, defending Ertez Y'isroel. i'm 55, and probably one of 6 Jews in the entire world who can read write and speak Korean,(and be vetted for a high level clearance) and if in Israel I would be looking at 27 years in IDF mil-intel, and mandatory uniform retirement......I would tell you the whole story, but in authenticity, men who call Israel, "so-called", I don't regard as "brothers", I regard as quite the opposite. in short, none of you, if face to face, would dare even speak about Israel in such a manner, because its life or death, and I love Jesus, my brothers and sisters, who DO KNOW ME, know that is true, but also in my blood beats the heart of King David, poet and warrior.

My brothers and sisters here WHO DO KNOW ME, I love with passion, and intensity, and would eagerly take their "bullet" and they know that.

You four?....you're not my brothers, because you parrot EXACTLY what these "jihadi's" rant IMPOTENTLY about.

they all should be quaking in their boots right now, because Israel has suddenly gone VERY quiet.....especially the Iranians....they will never know when its coming.

here, here is what the burden Israel's 18 to 20 year olds have to shoulder, so their grandmothers can be safe from hate filled muslims: (btw, their training commander, Lt. Eden is all of 20 years old, watch him, and ask , could an American 20 year old be entrusted with the responsibility of 40 eighteen to nineteen year olds?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh0UX_6C8fM

 2015/11/3 10:48
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE: ///Some of these accusations were that people that supported the re-birth of Israel were Christian Zionist...///

When I type in the word Christian Zionism this is the definition that pops up at the front of the page, I believe it is from wikapedia :

"Christian Zionism is a belief among some Christians that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land, and the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, is in accordance with Biblical prophecy. The term began to be used in the mid-20th century, superseding Christian Restorationism."

 2015/11/3 10:50Profile









 Re:

Well said Dave

The guy kept quoting the anti- Jewish rev sizer over and over again in a favourable light,
He fanned the flames to get the response that he did. Overboard yes to some degree but why give the haters of the Jewish people more to work with?
Do they not have enough excuses already?

 2015/11/3 11:03









 AND.....

with this disdain for Israel, they share the same "burden" as those left wing atheists that populate this nations "progressive" universities, in fact should these men even ATTEMPT to preach Christ on these campuses? oh my...this clip is entitled "Crossing the Line: The New Face of Anti-Semitism on Campus"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNDCcsH_wgU

 2015/11/3 11:15
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

There are always two or more sides to every issue or topic, whether it be theological, political or other.

Sometimes when we are so used to hearing, understanding and assenting to a certain perspective we can think that any other contrary perspective is anathema (I’m referring to non-essentials). For example, we see this happening sometimes when it comes to the issue of Calvinism vs Arminianism. Some get so used to their perspective that when they come across others who disagree they start questioning their salvation. This shouldn’t be.

Quote:
Even you, Oracio repeated the conspiracy theory of Israel and 9/11 to your shame. Why would you do that on a thread that was already on fire!


That is not true. If you read my statement carefully I simply meant to say it wouldn’t surprise me if it was true since I do not trust that government along with every other earthly government. My thought simply was, what if it was true and there was ample proof of it? Would we still side with that government? Sadly, it seems some here would, or they would be in denial no matter how much evidence were brought to the table. Again, please don’t misunderstand my comments as I’m not saying this theory is true or not.

Also, we’re not the ones that brought up the issue of 9/11 in the first place. It was brought up to discredit Steven Sizer. Again, simply because he may see validity to that theory doesn’t make him anti-Semitic/Jew-hater or anti-Christ. He seems to be for the promotion of peace in the Middle East as opposed to war and simply does not see the necessary fulfillment of certain Biblical prophecies in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and multitudes of true believers (including many Messianic Jews) agree.

There are many Jewish people, both inside and outside of Israel, who disagree with certain Israeli government policies due to them seeing certain types of biased corruption, just like here in the US there are many Americans who disagree with and do not fully trust the government due to there being ample proof of corruption throughout the years.

Again, not trusting the Israeli government, particularly Mossad (partly due to them being linked with the CIA- the CIA being an organization that has been clearly exposed as highly corrupt and treacherous to US citizens), does not equate with not trusting the Jewish people as a whole. The government is a separate entity from the people but some here refuse to accept that distinction, and we are called anti-Christ and unsaved for pointing that out.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/11/3 12:17Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Also again for the record, I do not side with Iran or any other Islamic nation that has hateful policies against Christians, Jews and others. Again, there is corruption on both sides of the conflict in the Middle East.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/11/3 12:27Profile









 Re:

"It was brought up to discredit Steven Sizer"

No, Sizer has done an excellent job to utterly discredit himself as an agent of satan, a wolf in wolves clothing. A true man of the cloth.
(He can repent however and turn to Jesus and be saved)

 2015/11/3 12:41
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 688
Texas

 Re:

If we believe we have discernment, can we discern when an issue has become "ruinous" to the hearer?

In a multitude of words transgression is unavoidable.

It sure appears "the dividing wall of hostility" that our Lord gave His life to remove has been rebuilt in this thread.

Is it not better to be wronged...(for the sake of the name of Christ) than to insist on being right by accusing those who are "wrong".

I believe the Spirit of our Lord is grieved over some of the communication in this thread.

Makrothumia


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2015/11/3 13:08Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2143


 Re: For Heydave

You wrote,

I have not posted on here for a couple of days as I do not want to perpetuate this discussion that was going nowhere. However I just want to clarify something regarding accusations, so this is my last post on this.

You have to accept that there were many things written by both sides of this argument that were uncalled for. You make it sound like it was all one sided.

PP correctly stated that there were two original topics posted. First by Docs and the one I posted on the film about anti-Semitism. It was on this one that we saw accusations being posted right from the start. I just posted the link with no real comment and was content to leave it for folk to watch and judge themselves. Immediately Julius posted a provocative reply, before even watching the film. He accused Michael Brown of being caught in a cult! He then went on to post incessantly, before even watching the film out and afterward making more accusations.
Some of these accusations were that people that supported the re-birth of Israel were Christian Zionist, Hebrew Roots Movement and were even responsible for the deaths of thousands of people in the wars between Israel and the arabs. The makers of the film were also accused of having a sinister agenda. He even went on to say it would have been better if Israel had never become a nation in 1948 and the Jews had stayed where they were.

If you go back and read these threads from the beginning you can easily see and verify these things and see how even with these accusations right at the beginning the responses to Julius were measured and gracious. However he persisted in posting more and more until he got the response he did. Then later on we get different types of posts, claiming he actually supports Israel having a homeland and has a heart for the Jews, etc, etc. So he now becomes the victim and everyone against him the villains, just like Docs posted selected quotes above, but forgot the ones I have highlighted. Even you, Oracio repeated the conspiracy theory of Israel and 9/11 to your shame. Why would you do that on a thread that was already on fire!

It will be seen as obvious to many who was the main contributor and incessant poster on this topic and fanned the flames with uncalled for accusations. If there is a need for repentance apology it needs to start there.

Doc: Hey bro. I'm playing catch up ball here to a large degree. Meaning, I have not even looked at the thread you started on the film "Covenant and Controversy" unjtil tonight. It wasn't a conscious omission or anything I just didn't look at the thread. I've been very busy at work etc. and I have known about this film but didn't look at the thread until today. I looked at about 70% of the comments and replies. So my earlier post was not forgetting the things and statements you referenced. It was just that I hadn't seen them until now.

I don't believe Michael Brown is a part of any cult and any references to 9/11 and Israel, even if not a outright accusation but along the lines of I wouldn't be suprised if it is found out they were complicit, I find to be very disappointing. So I wasn't ignoring your comments, I just had not even looked at the thread on the film until today.

Meanwhile, I have watched the first 30 minutes of the film and they are treading on delicate ground to be sure but ground that needs to be tred upon and examined afresh. I have no problem with it so far. The motivating factor behind these persecutions cannot be entirely divorced from certain Christian theologies no matter how much one may want to avoid it. Thank you for the recommendation of the film and the concern you have shown.


_________________
David Winter

 2015/11/3 20:54Profile





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