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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : To tithe or not to tithe?

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 Re:

I love to give too, JFW. I think most true believers do and because of the life of Christ in them, it is normal for them to want to expend their life for the Lord and others. Giving is the nature of Christ.

 2015/10/20 17:21
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 2009
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Amen+:)


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Fletcher

 2015/10/20 21:33Profile
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 562


 Re:

JHerndon:

Quote:
I personally believe that giving strictly 10% to the penny because that's what we feel is required can be legalistic. I believe we should give cheerfully and sacrificially. If we are giving 10% out of a fear of being sent to hell that doesn't sound cheerful. Also 10% to some might not be very sacrificial and 5% to others might be extremely sacrificial. In the book of Acts there is no set amount. They were giving everything they could give.


And don't forget the debates about whether the 10% tithe should be based on before-tax or after-tax income ;)

It's good to consider David's perspective on giving (1 Chronicles 29:14):

"But who am I, and who are my people,
That we should be able to offer so willingly as this?
For all things come from You,
And of Your own we have given You."

 2015/10/21 4:55Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

“God’s work, done in God’s way, never lacks God’s support.”
- George Muller.


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Bill

 2015/10/21 11:15Profile









 Re:

After Samuel tells Israel what it will be like to have a King over them (take 10% of their best goods and servants) the Lord tells Samuel to tell them to go back their respective cities.

1Sa 8:22 And the LORD said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city.

Men love to build "cities" for themselves and these cities require "kings" who will organize them and make sure they are paid for and run "properly".

Paul says that we do not have a "city" in this world and provides a rationale for going outside the camp. The "camp" being the religious "city" of Judaism and Jerusalem (but by extension, any religious structure counterfeited for the "Jerusalem above").

Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

The people of God seek a city which is to come. Here in this world, we don't have a city that we can settle down in and make our abode and practice Christian religion. We aren't called to make large edifices, tall temples (steeples) or "sacred" buildings all replete with their religious rituals, procedures and codes of conduct. Jerusalem on earth today is considered sacred and other religions have built their sacred places, too. But Paul is telling us not to put our trust in physical Jerusalem (religious cities/structures made by men). We are New Covenant Christians and are not to put our trust in physical Jerusalem ( and everything associated with it).

We are citizens of the "city of God (Psa 87:3), the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:2), Jerusalem above (Psa 137:6)." Religious men have always engaged in "city-building" ever since they tried to build the "tower of Babel" (Gen. 11:4-9). What is it about men that they continue to attempt to construct a social, religious community not according to God's ways? You see how prophetic 1 Samuel 8, really is.

Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain. (Psa 127:1)

What man builds is just another Babylon full of the evil of men's ways. At best, only a parody of Jerusalem above, the City of God.

Wouldn't you rather be a faithful, functioning Christian in the City whose builder and Maker is God? Participating as an overcomer in the New Jerusalem, the spiritual "city of peace", free from men's religious laws (tithing, sabbath, etc)?

Heb_12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The Enemy knows we exist in space and time and also knows that it is more convenient for us to walk by sight rather than by faith and so he is always offering reasonable alternatives. Even though the Church of Jesus Christ is a spiritual community of Believers "called out" of everything that is not of Christ in this world, Satan continues to offer counterfeits of the "heavenly Jerusalem" to draw us away from Christ and one another.

We live in the "holy place" of God's presence and not in physical religious structures on earth. And these "structures" are not just buildings, but they are doctrine, creeds, belief systems...men's religious laws.

We are partakers of an heavenly altar (partaking of Christ)...
Heb 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

That is outside the camp of men's religious structures...
Heb 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

In a spiritual society (heavenly city)...
Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Where God is worshipped with our whole heart, soul, mind and body each and every day...
Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

Sharing with one another
Heb 13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

And walking in mutual submission and respect for elders
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

On the plains of Shinar, where the tower of Babel was built, God came down to see what men were building and saw the rebellion in their heart as they built a city where THEY would be glorified. He destroyed their tower and brought confusion to them. Men have been in confusion ever since and they have been divided. Today, there are tall towers on street corners and the men are still divided as they continue to rebel against the "heavenly Jerusalem".

Evil was born on the Plains of Shinar and humanity was enslaved as they made war against the God of heaven.

Satan the King of "Babylon" has continued to build and God has continued to build and these two kingdoms are coming quickly to a more direct confrontation as is seen in the book of Revelation, Matt 24 and Luke 21, as Christians will be hated by all nations for His namesake. Babylon is bringing the world's financial, political and religious systems together, enslaving men and continuing to build the tower. Those who are faithful to the "City of God, heavenly Jerusalem", will be found out by the "earth dwellers".

Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that DWELL ON THE EARTH shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev_18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT OH HER, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 2015/10/21 11:20
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

Matthew 19:21 “Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.”
Mark 10:21 “Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.”
Luke 12:33 “Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.”
Luke 18:22 “Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.”

Seriously brothers and sisters, if we apply verses listed above, we could very easily establish doctrinal justification that the New Covenant storehouse or treasury is in heaven – a spiritual treasury – not a meeting place on earth, “where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth” (Which could be easily interpreted as greedy, corrupt religious leaders). Since we are now in a spiritual covenant with God, shouldn’t we be trying to distance ourselves from our natural mindset and begin thinking more spiritually? “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” John 4:24) And According to the verses above, the way to give into the spiritual treasury is by giving to the poor, not some wealthy pastor and his temple building fund.


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Bill

 2015/10/21 11:35Profile









 Re:

"Babylon" is where all false religions congregate and come from, for they all have one source - Satan, the king of Babylon.

Christians must look beyond the physical religious world that has been pulled over their eyes and discover the truth of the Scriptures.

Lord give us eyes to see You and your City and discernment to recognize the counterfeit.

 2015/10/21 12:33
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
10% tithe "as a starting point" should be held privately by people and not preached publicly. There are people on Social Security (or less) that give in many, many ways that are not necessarily financial and when they hear "10% is a starting point", especially from their spiritual elders/pastor, they feel obligated. This can be religious coercion that talks them out of finances they need for themselves or others.



I agree completely. I think 10% is a good starting point, not a required starting point. Most people can probably afford to give 10%. It gives a good place to establish a discipline of giving. But, if giving 1% is an act of faith for you, then you should not be condemned if you are giving 1%. God is pleased if your giving is done willingly and in faith.


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Travis

 2015/10/21 13:38Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I agree completely. I think 10% is a good starting point, not a required starting point.



After reflecting on this, I don't think it makes sense to impose a discipline on yourself since we are to walk by the Spirit. Your ears won't be open to more if the Spirit is trying to speak to you. And we really don't walk by regulation even if it is self-imposed.

Quote:
Most people can probably afford to give 10%.



How do you know this information? And give 10% of what? If you are speaking about money, I would say most people probably don't have it in lieu of their other responsibilities and taxes.

From what I read, most people live paycheck to paycheck and won't have much at all to take care of themselves after they stop working. But, since they have been paying into the Church all their lives, maybe the Church will take care of them.

Adding the "Religious Tax" to the others. Some of these are applicable to Small Business Owners.

Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
CDL license Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Dog License Tax
Excise Taxes
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel Permit Tax
Gasoline Tax (currently 44.75 cents per gallon)
Gross Receipts Tax
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax
Inventory Tax
IRS Interest Charges IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Personal Property Tax
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Service Charge Tax
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Tax
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Sales Tax
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone Federal Excise Tax
Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax
Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes
Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax
Telephone Recurring and Nonrecurring Charges Tax
Telephone State and Local Tax
Telephone Usage Charge Tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax


Quote:
It gives a good place to establish a discipline of giving. But, if giving 1% is an act of faith for you, then you should not be condemned if you are giving 1%. God is pleased if your giving is done willingly and in faith.



Who even keeps track of what percentage they are giving since God does not require such an earthly concept?

A "good place to start" is just to listen to the Lord and be willing to obey Him. That is all He asks. He is not asking for our help in creating an agenda for Him.

 2015/10/21 15:05
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

A favorite quote of the tithe teachers is the second part of Malachi 3:10. “Prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.” I could confidently make the declaration that the greatest majority of the Christians that faithfully give 10% or more, under the tithe system, never see a return “blessing” so large they don’t have enough room to receive it. In fact, I find a lot of them having a hard time just making ends meet.

And I am not including the Christians that get themselves into financial bondage with large house and car payments trying to keep up with the Jones's, I’m referring to the ones who are having difficulty affording the basic necessities of life (food, clothing, water, and shelter). Yes, we all realize blessings encompass a lot more than just money, but money is a part of it, especially if the seed sown is currency, and financial returns are what the tithe teachers emphasize when referencing “blessings.” If this Malachi Old Covenant verse is for New Covenant believers, why isn’t it working? These brothers and sisters are “proving” God as they are told by their pastor to do for many years, yet very few see huge returns, financial or otherwise.

Could it be because they are not giving to the true temple “storehouse,” or maybe because the money is not going to the actual bloodline tribe of Levi as the Old Covenant commands? If you look closely at the “blessings” from the tithe system in the churches, isn’t it blatantly obvious the majority of the ones seeing the “abundant returns” are the ones collecting the tithes, (and their own close, blood family members)?


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Bill

 2015/10/21 15:28Profile





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