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 Re:

Marc,

Let me ask you a simple question and please just give me as simple an answer as you can give.

Are some people predestined to hell and some predestined to heaven?

Are some elected to eternal life and some elected to eternal death?

 2015/8/23 15:19









 Re:

Julius21,

Even your question is flawed because your looking at the actions of God from the point of man.

Unconditional Election is the second point not the first. And even a brief discussion of the first point is usually unacceptable to the flesh of man. Therefore no light from the Holy Spirit breaks through and darkness remains.

I would ask you if you think that an Eternal, all Powerful, all sufficient and perfect Creator would have left the eternal destiny of man in the hands of man? Nonsense.

He is the Master Builder and as such made a Master Blueprint before He said the first "Let there Be".

FTR the Master blueprint was shown to Paul and is so plain and simple a child can understand it. Its Ephesians chapter 1. You must reconcile all the versus that seem to say something else with Eph 1. If it appears to contradict it your misunderstanding the context or more likely confusing a sanctification verse with what you think is a justification verse which is most often the case and certainly the case in this thread.

marc mc

 2015/8/23 16:09
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE///If some are predestined to heaven and some to hell, .............. and many infants are going to hell.///

That is my understanding of what Calvin taught.

Calvin believed that Guilt and condemnation where imputed to the child at birth or more accurately at conception, he taught that sin was the infants very nature.

speaking of the infant calvin writes :
"Nay,their whole nature is, as it were, a seed-bed of sin, and therefore cannot but be odious-and abominable to God."

he got this assumption not from the Bible but from Augustine.(hence the reason of infant baptism : to remedy
the sin nature of the infant)

Calvin himself lost a child.

Calvin took 1 Corinthians 7:14 and used it to argue that those infants that die that are born from believing parents like himself will go to heaven and those whom are born from unbelieving parents died unclean.
add:(Can be found p.52 "John Calvin Treatises against the Anabaptist..")

This misuse of scripture hurts many today because than the question today is sometimes asked by women whom lost a child before they where saved. Is the child in hell?

But that is not Bible that is Augustinianism and his doctrine of original sin.

The Bible teaches that sin is imputed when one breaks the law. (no law : no sin) "sin is not imputed when there is no law."
the Bible teaches that "sin is the transgression of the law"
It does not teach that sin is imputed intrinsicly at conception.
I have never known a child that had a guilt or condemnation issue at birth. All without exception are "naked and not ashamed." alive to innocents rom 7:9.
all children are born innocent all are born into a world of law but not born comprehending law.


 2015/8/23 16:52Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Marc mc,

I said to you way back on this thread that all you were doing was making accusations and presenting human reasonings, plus you give no scripture to support your opinions.

You're still doing this and come across as extremely arrogant as well. Is this the fruit of your Calvinistic theology?


_________________
Dave

 2015/8/23 17:29Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Heydave said.."presenting human reasoning's".



This is 3 powerful words quoted above, we humans with finite minds will never know it all, or even come close to figuring out God. There will always be unanswered questions, that man cannot answer, only God has the answer.
Can I Get A Amen!


_________________
Bill

 2015/8/23 17:53Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Bill that is true.

When I read Calvin I find very little that I agree with but when I read the Calvinist Spurgeon I find very little that I disagree with.

such issues are really a none issues


 2015/8/23 18:02Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Amen Mr Bill!

Amen to PP's last post as well! The part about Spurgeon that is. Very little, but some disagreement.


_________________
Dave

 2015/8/23 18:04Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by marcmc on 2015/8/23 16:09:56

Julius21,

Even your question is flawed because your looking at the actions of God from the point of man.

Unconditional Election is the second point not the first. And even a brief discussion of the first point is usually unacceptable to the flesh of man. Therefore no light from the Holy Spirit breaks through and darkness remains.

I would ask you if you think that an Eternal, all Powerful, all sufficient and perfect Creator would have left the eternal destiny of man in the hands of man? Nonsense.

He is the Master Builder and as such made a Master Blueprint before He said the first "Let there Be".

FTR the Master blueprint was shown to Paul and is so plain and simple a child can understand it. Its Ephesians chapter 1. You must reconcile all the versus that seem to say something else with Eph 1. If it appears to contradict it your misunderstanding the context or more likely confusing a sanctification verse with what you think is a justification verse which is most often the case and certainly the case in this thread.



Hmmmm, this sounds more like a lecture than an attempt to explain the position of Unconditional Election. I know the Calvinists can't agree among themselves about the decrees of God but one thing (in my studies) that they do agree on is that God has elected certain ones to salvation and reprobate others. Since God's decrees with all the trimmings can't be found in the Bible, the Calvinist will emphasize his arbitrary distinctions of the "elect" and the "reprobate" since the actual words can be found in the Bible. I would like to examine reprobation since Calvin claimed that "election itself could not stand except as set over against reprobation."

David J. Engelsma said in his book "Hyper-Calivinism" that Reprobation is "God's eternal decree that the destiny of certain men shall be everlasting death, whether one views it as God's passing those men by with the grace of election or as the determination to damn."

John Gill says, "it is spoken of but sparingly in scripture, in his book "The Body of Divinity".

My questions are these:

1) Does God make a man in a reprobate condition?
2) Are men reprobate because of something they do?
3) Is a reprobate in a permanent, irreversible condition?

To "probate" something is to prove something. Like a "probationary" period. A probe is an examination. To re-probate something is to prove it again. So a reprobate is someone or something that is unapproved and stands rejected in a position to be proved or tried again.

The word reprobation does not occur in the Bible. The word reprobate occurs 4 times and the plural, 3 times. The word reprobate occurs 1 time in the OT.

Jer 6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.

The definition of the word reprobate is given in the scripture as "rejected". (Another thing I like about KJV is the built in dictionary).

Not to digress...

They were reprobate because they were rejected and they were rejected because of a sovereign eternal decree.

Jer_6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

The Lord said again, "Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken." Jer 6:17

Therefore they were reprobate because, "they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it." Jer 6:19b

"the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, (Acts 2:23) and "according to the counsel of his own will" (Eph 1:11) had nothing to do with it.

God does not ordain uncleanness, vile affections or reprobate minds. I will end this post for now and let you respond and then go over the six scriptures in the NT.

 2015/8/23 18:57
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 719
San Diego

 Re:

It has been a while since my last visit to the site, but was intrigued by the lively discussion on a topic wrangled many times over the years- even those years from the distant past dating back to Augustine!

It is interesting to me that people seem to think that the thing that makes sin most abhorrent to God is the way it is a part of our nature. Actually, the opposite is true. Any being that performs according to its nature is essentially guiltless. Just as we don't inflict capital punishments on our pets and small children when they damage household items left within range, we recognize that children are curious and put things in their mouths, dogs are playful and like to tear things up with their powerful bite. It is in their natures.

What makes us different is our moral compass and force of conscience. As James notes, "He that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

He is making a reverse of the notion that if you know something is bad, you should not do it.

For me, raised and indoctrinated as a Calvinist, seeing the error of that thinking was at the same time devastating and exhilarating. While I believed that way I was blind to the fact that I hated God in all His unfairness. As Supreme Being, He could do whatever He wished, the potter and the clay argument. Who am I, wretched sinner with a sinful nature, guilty of my father's sin, guilty of Adam's sin- totally depraved and unworthy. My depraved logic said, "OK, but I don't have to like it!"

There were many scriptures that, with the help of a good friend who had a different understanding and a compassionate spirit toward me, lead me into a phenomenal realization of how God's love works.

To begin with: James says the wisdom from above is pure, peaceable, easy to understand. God is not afraid of my ability to reason, and expects my reason to flow in accord with the truth about Himself He wants me to enjoy.

Speaking of reason, the things He commands me to do are reasonable and doable. Deuteronomy 30:11 says "This law that I command you this day is not too hard for you, you can do it." Somehow, this removes that favorite excuse we love- God's law is too hard for us. He disagrees.

And Paul brings it up in Romans 10, he knew that verse too.

But the clincher for me was Ezekiel 18, too long to fully quote here. In this passage, the prophet hears and relates a complaint God has with His people. "You say, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge.' You are no longer to utter that saying in the land of Israel!"

What does that mean? The whole chapter puts it together, that every individual is responsible for his own sin, and accountable to live in righteousness. It is a serious rebuke of the doctrine that had crept into that culture suggesting that the sinful nature is passed down from fathers to sons. As I meditated on this passage it became clear to me that my sin was my fault, my problem, my choices to please myself rather than to please God. I would stand before my creator with absolutely no valid excuse for the evil I had welcomed into the life He had given me.

It was the Holy Spirit who drove that home, and allowed me to finally see that Jesus died for me because He loved me, not because it was some predetermined program to save some, condemn others.

Something often overlooked in these discussions is the critical importance of God's trinity. Calvin's concept of God missed the fact that the Father and the Son are lovingly accountable to one another. The behavior of one is always under the scrutiny of the other and neither has any right to be unjust or arbitrary. If one were to seize an autocratic role in the Godhead, all virtue would dissolve and we would have Allah. You already know what that God is like!

Once saved always saved is real. But it is based on submission to Christ without reservation, a man flooded with the Holy Spirit whose soul thirsts for Him alone, a man whose heart is sealed with that Spirit as referenced in Ephesians 1, but it is never beyond that individual's prerogative to abandon the covenant.

Nothing in scripture suggests anything like that, and just as the New Testament writers often said "If ye continue..." so also Ezekiel says in the above mentioned passage- if a man chooses to leave his righteousness and turn his back on God, his prior righteousness will not be remembered for him at the judgement.

John Calvin had a nasty habit of murdering those who disagreed with his theology. The Institutes are a monumental work, but in my mind the TULIP premises are flawed. As I have come to know God through His Son, He is a God of relationship, He made me to love and while He eager desires I love Him back- He cannot force it and call it virtue.

I do love Him, immensely and more with each passing day. But I am always aware of His obligation to govern the universe and His absolute obligation to protect the integrity of His law. It was the mingling of His law and His love that sent Jesus to the cross- enabling Him to save all men while at the same time not obligating Him to save anyone.

Thus the Gospel- Repent and believe!!


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2015/8/23 20:03Profile









 Re:

I have threaded very lightly in this thread. I have purposely avoided the cal vs arm waters because I know it's generally against the sermon index rules. I will be honest I rarely visit here, I more or less have used it like I do many other sources as a way to simply see what is current in different areas of Christian groups.

It is my conviction that this debate is counter productive to the church and individual believers and as my simple points have already provoked division I will simply ask that the Lord bless you and Sermon index with His love, joy and grace.

marcmc

 2015/8/23 21:03





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