Brother Marc,
Can you explain then if God is the sole proprietor of salvation and we play no active part then how does a person go to hell, if not by God not saving them in an act of sovereign grace?

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Fletcher

For that we will have to have a discussion of Adams rebellion! Far more than a few lines here would allow.. The evil nature that is in fallen man is not simply the results of a single failure of a simple test in the Garden.

Adam and female Adam (her name was not Eve at her time of rebellion, Adam named her that after the fall) did not simply fail a simple test. They travelled a path that led them farther and farther from God. It is the exact path that Lucifer had travelled (study what he trafficked that led to his hatred of God). It is also the same path that every single creature in any possible creation would travel apart from the grace of preserving election.

God however is not responsible to give this grace to any beings. Lucifer was perfect and Adam (male and female) were good. Both had simple instructions, both rebelled and both are responsible because their rebellion was morally and specifically against Gods rule of authority.

When Adam rebelled he hated God and wanted rulership apart from him just as lucifer had and neither repented and never would. Her rebellion produced the lust of the eyes, flesh and pride of life in man. His rebellion produced the rejection of any and all of Gods right to rule man (christoper Hitchens verbalised this best in his rants) The specific rebellion against God that the first Adam grew into before the act of defiance is at the core of mans nature. It is rooted not just in a selfish bent but specifically in a hatred of all that is of God, it is total ruin and death in the eyes of God. The waters get very deep very fast when that sinks in and you will understand the depths to which man is in, why they hated Jesus so much and the amazing level of mercy that God has extended to the undeserving elect. When understood it catapults a life into holiness, gratitude and passion.

Marc mc

Aww gee whiz. This is just another old Calvinism debate. Lord spare us.

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Todd

TMK,

I was simply answering a question I was asked by JFW.



marcmc

Yes but you took an extremely convoluted route to say that yes, God sovereignly elects some persons to go to hell, because those he does not elect for heaven shall surely go there.

The idea is repellant beyond imagining.

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Todd

God is not responsible for a single person going to Hell. It is all to be laid at Adams feet, I felt I was very clear on that point!

Ability to save all does not make Him responsible to do so.

He had an infinite number of options to bring a people to His Son. he chose the best one. To the flesh of man it is totally repulsive as He Himself was in person in the flesh.

Marc mc

Are you saying that God did not know that man would sin before He created him? If He knew, that means He created the system.

That is perfectly fine- He is God and can do what He wants. But your solution- election of some and not others- is what is repellant.

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Todd

Brother Marc,
I must say I'm more than a little surprised you quoted on of the foremost atheist of our times ( Christopher Hitchens) in your presentation, especially considering his pronounced hatred of all things Biblical... a modern day Voltare if you will.

So again correct me if I'm wrong,... God Himself withholds the grace necessary for salvation from some of not most people?

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Fletcher

I absolutely did not quote Christopher Hitchens. I repeat did not quote a single word he said. I simply used him as an example of a person that hated the idea of any subordination to God as the most offensive idea he could imagine. Read what I said again.

marcmc

As John Wesley indicated the election of some to hell and some to heaven, destroys preaching and a walk of holiness.