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brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 2556


 Re:

So prevenient grace enables a carnal man who is in the flesh the sinful natural man , to believe ,so man in the flesh can please God to such a degree that through that faith he is justified ,

I don't see how can reconcile Romons 7 and other teachings of Paul with that,

Paul, said that carnal mind is not subject to the law of God neither can it be,,but weasly says that the carnal mind is subjected to prevenieial grace and the unregenerate carnal fleshly mind produces ,with gods help a fruit of the Holy Spirit namely faith through which he is justified .

Is that what he says more or less
.

 2015/8/25 2:31Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Hi Gary,

You wrote a lot of posts! I will only pick up on a couple of points otherwise we will be all over the place.

Last first. Your explanation of what I described as prevenient grace...No that is not what it means. You have put your slant on it to make it unacceptable to you. Prevenient grace comes in the message of the gospel (which is the power of God unto salvation). I thought I had emphasised that enough, it is NOT our power, but God's power that saves us. So it is NOT the fleshly mind that is operating, but God's grace (enabling power) given at that moment we avail ourselves of it. Yes it is correct that our carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, but God's grace enables us to reach out to Him in faith and then receive a new regenerate heart, which loves God's law.

Romans 7 is definitely Paul speaking about life without the Spirit (unregenerate), otherwise Romans 6 and 8 are not a reality and we are all in bondage to sin (which we are not).

Now to the issue of predestination. Predestination is not used separately from 'foreknowledge' or as part of the corporate body (the Church) in being His special people. It is unbiblical to state that individuals are predestined to salvation. No where does it state that.
Because of God's omniscient foreknowledge of who will be saved, He predestines us to be conformed to the image of the Son (Rom 8:29). He chose us IN HIM (not to be in Him) that we should be Holy and without blame (Eph. 1:4). Having predestined us to BE children BY Christ Jesus. (Eph 1:5). Note, it is always predestined to become something in Christ, NOT predestined to BE IN Christ! There is a huge difference.

We are predestined BECAUSE we are in Christ, not individually chosen to receive salvation. "God desires all men to be saved" and "commands all men everywhere to repent". How does that stack up with God only choosing some (a few) to be saved???

So "what does it mean to not have your names written in the book of life from the foundation of the world ??"

It means God in His foreknowledge knows those who will be saved. He must know if He is omniscient! So as far as God's foreknowledge they are already in His book, but that does not mean He pre-ordained who could be in His book and who could not respond to such great a salvation. David wrote in the Psalms that all his days were written in God's book. Surely that does not mean that everything David did (good and bad) was planned by God and it was His will! That is Islam's god of fatalism.


_________________
Dave

 2015/8/25 4:48Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 2556


 Re:

Sorry about writing so much ,I was just trying to touch on the things you mentioned.

Well I don't think I put any slant on it I just don't think the bible teaches that.
I never said to my knowledge that you said the fleash has the power in itself, I realise that would be pelagisim .

Paul said I'm me that is in my flesh nothing good dwell to will is present but how to perform what is good a can not find ,,he considered who he was before regeneration as flesh and nothing good was in him ,,so the reason why I said what I said and you said that was my slant on it ,was that you seem to be saying that grace inabled Paul before he was bornagain ,to have faith, who are we before regeneration??

The bible-says what I said befor ,fleshy carnal the natural man, that's not a slant brother, it seems like when itslaid it like that maby you don't like the sound of it or you misunderstood and thought I was saying that the carnal fleshy man had the power in him self to repent and believe ..

You said it's not the fleshy mind that is operating but gods grace,,but how so,,,is it not the fleash or the carnal mind that the spirit is operating on so as to enable the mind to believe ,obviously you say this is before regeneration,,so this mind you speak of is the unregenerate carnal mind that this spirit inables to have faith ...........

So in other words we are justified through something that grace induced our fallen carnal flesh mind to express.....I find that hard to believe,maby I need more previnent grace !!! Lol

We are justified freely by his grace through the redemption of Jesus Christ ...that's a worthy saying

Then the bible also says ,,,,, . Therefor having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our lord Jesus Christ..

If both those verses are truth,then faith it's self must also be a grace ,rather then an expression of human mind ,because that's not grace ....

But any way I better stop on that ...

Yea I agree with you about Romans 7 about it talking about the unregenerate,that's why I mentioned that Paul said in that state he could want to do good but found he could not do the good because of the evil that was present with ,,which was the flesh ,it was who he he was .

That was my point that in that sate Paul insists that he could please good ,,,.

And one of the most pleasing things is to have faith and repent and this he could not do because the flesh kept denying the truth and causing the sin of doubt ,,the spirit of grace needs to do more then Inable free will ,it has to disable the fleash and kill the sin of doubt ....

Paul had a mighty revaluation and met Jesus ,and believed...



Well I don't obviously agree on the predenation is meaning forknowlage ,I might not be understanding you there ...

I do interprate being conformed to the image of his son as I future time of glory when in the twinkling of the eye he wil be Changed for we see him has he is ,and will be like him ,,,,,thats salvation ,,,

…29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified .

You can see the flow of the context points to glorafication Paul speaks about it all as a present reality , which points to the reason he uses the term predestined .

It's definitely talking about individuals,,many individuals..


Maby you can explain a little about the in him and to be in him and the big difference there is there so I no what mean exactly

Yea I don't agree at all with the ,,we are predestined because we are in Christ,,

But we are predestined before we were born ,and chosen before we were born ,I'm sure the reason for that can be debated there for we are in Christ as a part of gods plane and pourpus


Paul is clearly explaining to Timothy that he wants all types of men to be saved in the preceding verses he talks about why and he says pray for men from all walks of life ....

Cleary Paul is not saying he wants Timothy to pray for every livingsoul on the earth so he obviously is not saying a few verses later that he wants every soul to be saved ,, it doesn't fit with flow of the context at all ,or with other verses that say false teachers are mark out for destruction, or when Jesus refused to pray for the word to be saved ,but prayed only for those who followed him ,and the others like us who would come to Christ later ..


What I was trying to get from you was wether you thought that those who's names wer not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world ,was predestined ,or set in concrete,so to speak ,or do you think there names could be added later ,and vicer verses,,,,,,,,the answer to that would obviously effect thee interpretation of the other verse about blotting names out ....


Well it's been good chatting to you my brother , I really appreciate your manner and conduct ,,please don't take me the wrong way ,as some do on social media,,,I like to hear you view points ,and I don't what to offend you with all my remarks ,, I don't normally post so much .......

Blessings to you





 2015/8/25 6:55Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Morning Gary!

Yes I enjoy have this discussion when we keep it civilised, as it is beneficial in enabling us to learn from one another. 'Iron sharpens iron'!

Maybe one reason for misunderstanding is not having a correct definition of 'grace'. To many, 'grace' just means 'underserved favour' and not much different from 'mercy'. My understanding of how the bible uses the word 'grace' is to mean 'God's enabling presence and power'. When seen like this it is something active and alive and part of God Himself.

The other misunderstanding is, what it constitutes to be un-regenerate and 'in the flesh'. Does this mean that a man cannot do 'anything' that is profitable or good before he is regenerated? I would suggest that he can. Do you accept that unregenerate men can at times choose to do a good act? This does of course not make one righteous and without the Spirit there is no power to subdue the flesh in a consistent way, but certainly there are many occasions when unregenerate people choose to do the right thing. Therefore how much more with God's grace (enabling power) can a man choose to turn to Christ in faith.
'Faith' and 'grace' are not one and the same thing (otherwise there would not be two different words). We are save BY grace (God's action), THROUGH faith (our response) Eph.2:8. It is an error of Calvinism that states that faith is the gift here. It is grace that is the gift, received through faith.

Quote: "Then the bible also says ,,,,, . Therefor having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our lord Jesus Christ.."

It then goes on to say in the next verse.. "through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."
So you see it says what I am saying, 'faith is the access to 'grace'. They are not one and the same.

Quote: "Maby you can explain a little about the in him and to be in him and the big difference there is there so I no what mean exactly"

We are saved BECAUSE we are 'in Him' (Christ) and we are therefore 'predestined' to salvation because we are IN Christ, not predestined to be put in Christ. Let me illustrate using a biblical illustration this time :)
In Noah's day, those who went into the Ark were saved. They were only saved because they were IN the Ark. God did not save them and then put them in the Ark, or predestine any of them to enter the Ark. If one of Noah's sons had chosen not to go in the Ark he would have been lost. In the same way we are saved IF we are in Christ. How do we get to be 'in christ'? By grace through faith.

Quote: "What I was trying to get from you was wether you thought that those who's names wer not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world ,was predestined ,or set in concrete,so to speak ,or do you think there names could be added later ,and vicer verses,,,,,,,,the answer to that would obviously effect thee interpretation of the other verse about blotting names out ...."

The problem with trying to work this out is that we are human and God is not! We cannot really fully understand this side of heaven how God's omniscience (that He knows the end from the beginning) works with our free will. We think that because it is all known to God from eternity, then it must be-ordained, but not so. The bible hold both of these things in tension. As to being in the book and being blotted out this would also be known by God before times. Maybe it is because there are those who God knows will never get into the book of life, but there are others who have got in (by faith in Christ) and then forfeited their inclusion by later rejecting Christ. I'm not going to dogmatic about that. If I had all the perfect answers I would be perfect, and I'm not!

God bless.


_________________
Dave

 2015/8/25 10:37Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by Heydave on 2015/8/25 4:48:40

Hi Gary,

You wrote a lot of posts! I will only pick up on a couple of points otherwise we will be all over the place.

Last first. Your explanation of what I described as prevenient grace...No that is not what it means. You have put your slant on it to make it unacceptable to you. Prevenient grace comes in the message of the gospel (which is the power of God unto salvation). I thought I had emphasised that enough, it is NOT our power, but God's power that saves us. So it is NOT the fleshly mind that is operating, but God's grace (enabling power) given at that moment we avail ourselves of it. Yes it is correct that our carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, but God's grace enables us to reach out to Him in faith and then receive a new regenerate heart, which loves God's law.

Romans 7 is definitely Paul speaking about life without the Spirit (unregenerate), otherwise Romans 6 and 8 are not a reality and we are all in bondage to sin (which we are not).

Now to the issue of predestination. Predestination is not used separately from 'foreknowledge' or as part of the corporate body (the Church) in being His special people. It is unbiblical to state that individuals are predestined to salvation. No where does it state that.
Because of God's omniscient foreknowledge of who will be saved, He predestines us to be conformed to the image of the Son (Rom 8:29). He chose us IN HIM (not to be in Him) that we should be Holy and without blame (Eph. 1:4). Having predestined us to BE children BY Christ Jesus. (Eph 1:5). Note, it is always predestined to become something in Christ, NOT predestined to BE IN Christ! There is a huge difference.

We are predestined BECAUSE we are in Christ, not individually chosen to receive salvation. "God desires all men to be saved" and "commands all men everywhere to repent". How does that stack up with God only choosing some (a few) to be saved???

So "what does it mean to not have your names written in the book of life from the foundation of the world ??"

It means God in His foreknowledge knows those who will be saved. He must know if He is omniscient! So as far as God's foreknowledge they are already in His book, but that does not mean He pre-ordained who could be in His book and who could not respond to such great a salvation. David wrote in the Psalms that all his days were written in God's book. Surely that does not mean that everything David did (good and bad) was planned by God and it was His will! That is Islam's god of fatalism.



Great explanation, HeyDave. I believe this is what Scripture is teaching.

Scripture does not teach what David Engelsma says in his book, "Hyper-Calvinism".

"Scripture teaches that reprobation is God's sovereign, unconditional decree to damn some sinners. This is the inescapable implication of the Biblical doctrine that God has unconditionally chosen some men, not all, unto eternal life." pg 45.

and on the same page:

"Reprobation asserts that God eternally hates some men; has immutable decreed their damnation; and has determined to withhold from them Christ, grace, faith and salvation."

No wonder John Wesley was very outspoken in opposing this system:

"Sing, O hell, and rejoice ye that are under the earth. For God, even the mighty God, hath spoken and doomed to death thousands of souls, from the rising of the sun to the going down thereof. Here, O death, is thy sting. They shall not, cannot escape. For the mouth of the Lord hath spoken. Here, O grave, is thy victory. Nations yet unborn, or even they have done good or evil, are doomed never to see the light of life, but thou shalt gnaw upon them for ever and ever. Let all those morning stars sing together who fell with Lucifer, sun of the morning. Let all the sons of hell shout for joy. For the decree is past and who shall disannul it." John Wesley, The Great Debate.

This is a pretty straightforward statement by Engelsma. No way to misunderstand what he is trying to say.

 2015/8/25 10:45
dfella
Member



Joined: 2010/7/9
Posts: 295
Canton, Michigan

 Re:

I agree with Julius in Dave's response which is very well put. I appreciate the definition also of grace being Gods enabling power and mercy as unmerited favor.

In regards to predestination and Gods foreknowledge, they go hand in hand, you cannot have one without the other which point Dave really drove home.

Some have used the following verse to support predestination without Gods foreknowledge.

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

God loved Jacob and hated Esau because of their choices which He foreknew not because He predestined them to make those choices.

I just want to say I really appreciated this discussion from everyone and I am really believing the Lord in His mercy to straighten out areas any or all of us are missing it.

For the OSAS group I am in agreement with this verse (one of my favorites).

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

For the rest of us I believe this is the condition to the above verse.

Isaiah 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Wouldn't it be great if God just said read Romans 14 and just love one another!

As tiny Tim would say, "God bless us EVERY ONE"






_________________
David Fella

 2015/8/25 15:25Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 2009
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Brother Dave,
I too found your post well articulated and am blessed not only by the words but the gentle spirit in them:)
Your ideas are somewhat new to me as I had considered the scriptures on predestination and being "in Christ" to be about sanctification and not salvific via Harry Ironsides teaching that certainly all who are reborn in Christ are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ=sanctification. Tho your perspective gives me something to study out:)
As for the names in the book of life, these too (by my current understanding) are put there at the new birth as at that point we become partakers of eternal life which corresponds to the later verse in Rev. about being "from the foundation of the world".
The idea that everyone who is born (natural birth) is written in the book of life never really got traction in my mind because that would mean if/when some are blotted out they would have been erased from the annals of history as if they never existed, which I suppose would support the annihilation camp.
In any case this thread has been profitable for me as well and I'm grateful that Greg has been gracious and allowed it to continue as it is edifying to the body to reason things out and share the light we've been given and not trying to "win".
So having said this,...what are yalls thoughts on "sin nature", born with imputed Adamic, born with a "bent towards it", born pure and get polluted by choice and environment, etc..?
Thanks in advance as this has been a very serious matter for me for some time now and appreciate the understanding of others+:)


_________________
Fletcher

 2015/8/25 21:29Profile
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 562


 Re:

Hey everyone,

There have been various theological viewpoints shared in this thread (it's been very hard to keep up!). I believe "the proof of the pudding is in the eating" - that right theology leads to right living, and vice versa. So here are some questions:

Romans 8:13 - "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

The key emphasis in this verse for victory over sin is "by the Spirit". What is your *practical* understanding of this phrase?

Can you provide concrete examples, and share your real experiences of victory over sin?

 2015/8/26 4:19Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 2556


 Re:

Well the first major victory for me was at the time I was bornagain through reading the New Testament ,that instant the peace of God came over me ,the sin of doubt disappeared as if by a mirical,,,all doubt left and the presence of God was so real it caused me to believe in God and Jesus in an absolute way ,the next day the conviction of sin was so strong and the amassing holiness of was so real that it caused me to repent ,change my mind about me and about God and Christ ,,this led to victory over a methamphetamine addiction,,then cigarets,,,and then a lif long marajwana,addiction was broken by faith in what Jesus did on the cross ,and realising that because i was a Christian I was going to keep baring fruit and not fall away ,faith that God would not let me go and that he who began a good work would continue it and fininish ,,knowing that he was the author and the finisher of the faith the he delt to me at the moment I was regenerated ,,Iv struggled at times but come through knowing that God went to the trouble of saving me and he is power full enough to by his spirit finish sanctifying me !!

 2015/8/26 5:24Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

JFW asked: "what are yalls thoughts on "sin nature", born with imputed Adamic, born with a "bent towards it", born pure and get polluted by choice and environment, etc..? "

I think the term 'sinful nature' is an unhelpful one and also not found in scripture. Only in some of the newer translations do they interpose 'sinful nature' for 'flesh'.
I don't think they are the same thing, in that the term can give a wrong impression. The bible makes clear the obvious, that we are all born from Adam and therefore inherit his condition, which is spiritually cut off from the life of God.

In my understanding of scripture, to be 'in the flesh' is to operate and be controlled by our basic 'animal' instincts; the appetites of the flesh and without any other power (life of God) to do otherwise. You could call this a nature, but I would see it more as a lack of a nature. i.e lack of the spirit, which is dead to the life of God.

This leads onto Yuhan's question about walking in the Spirit and not the flesh (I'll post separately on that). Once we are re-born we have a new spirit in union with God. We now have a choice to walk in the 'spirit' or the 'flesh'. A choice we never had before. We don't have two 'natures' in the sense of two 'spirits'. We either walk in the spirit or we walk as we once did in our former life by the appetite of the flesh, quenching and grieving the Spirit.


_________________
Dave

 2015/8/26 5:55Profile





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