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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What place does baptism have in Biblical salvation?

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ReceivedText
Member



Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re: altar calls?

Stever,

My issue is mostly with your label, "altar call." I still give opportunities for response to the word, but try not to call them "altar calls." (Roman Catholic in origin)

But in the case of preaching the gospel to sinners and calling them to repentance, baptism is the Biblical response...NOT crying on the stairs of the platform.

This thread is about water baptism. Let me ask you, Do you call sinners to believe and be baptized? And then baptize them right then and there? This is the Biblical way. We are commanded to do it.

Do you do it?

RT

 2005/6/9 23:14Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
The altar call is nothing more than that call of repentance, given in the same order- preach first, then call for repentance.----what the Church has to offer is total forgiveness for all sin, past, present and future.



Oh, I am all for 'calls for repentance' but I don't confuse repentance with 'altar calls'. Your post pretty much admits that there is not a single instance of a modern 'altar call' in the scriptures. I don't think they should be banned, I will call for a response when I feel it appropriate. What I object to is being told that I must adopt a practice which has no scriptural precedence.

Quote:
Like I said before- show me where altar calls are prohibited, and then we have something to talk about.

This is the line adopted by those who support infant baptism, dancing, animal noises, a man-ordained priesthood, smoking and any number of things. I don't think you would be happy to see it used in these practices?

I don't object to your 'opinion'; you are welcome to keep it. But if you then set your opinion as the necessary pattern for the church of God worldwide I shall have something to say about it.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/10 1:30Profile









 Re:

Nasher said:
This thread is about water baptism. Let me ask you, Do you call sinners to believe and be baptized? And then baptize them right then and there? This is the Biblical way. We are commanded to do it.

Stever's response: We are not commanded to water baptize anyone. It is a practice today, as well as during the early Church, but it is not a command. It is a public statement by the believer that he has indeed received Christ, but it is not necessary for salvation. Paul only baptized one or two if I remember correctly, and he is the model for us, the Gentile Church. Paul was more involved in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit than water baptism.

Christ told us in Acts 1:
" 5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

I also believe that the Baptism that Christ refers to in Matthew 28 refers to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as well:
19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

That is where all of the confusion has been in the Church. Christ came to baptize with the Holy Ghost, but John the Baptist baptized with water, a symbol of the Holy Ghost.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/10 11:13
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Nasher said:



Hi Stever, I didn't, RT did.

Quote:
I also believe that the Baptism that Christ refers to in Matthew 28 refers to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as well:



How can we baptise anyone in the Holy Spirit?


_________________
Mark Nash

 2005/6/10 11:34Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I also believe that the Baptism that Christ refers to in Matthew 28 refers to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as well:
19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


curiouser and curiouser. Not only do you insist on non biblical practices but you also deny biblical practices. Cornelius and his household were baptised in the Holy Spirit in Acts 10 and this is made very clear; “And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 11:15-16, KJV) However Peter had insisted that the newly Spirit-baptised household should be water-baptised. “Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he [u]commanded[/u] them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.” (Acts 10:47-48, KJV)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/10 14:06Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Stever's response: We are not commanded to water baptize anyone. It is a practice today, as well as during the early Church, but it is not a command. It is a public statement by the believer that he has indeed received Christ, but it is not necessary for salvation. Paul only baptized one or two if I remember correctly, and he is the model for us, the Gentile Church. Paul was more involved in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit than water baptism.



This is simply not true. Paul did only baptize a few at Corinth, but the record of Acts clearly shows a pattern of water and Spirit baptism as philologos clearly demonstrates. They are distinct- not one and the same.

What passages are you using to substantiate that 'water' baptism and 'Spirit' baptism are one and the same?




_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/6/10 14:35Profile
ReceivedText
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Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re: Stever

Quote:
Nasher said:
This thread is about water baptism. Let me ask you, Do you call sinners to believe and be baptized? And then baptize them right then and there? This is the Biblical way. We are commanded to do it.



As Nasher pointed out, this was my quote.

Quote:
Stever's response: We are not commanded to water baptize anyone.



So I suppose you don't think that the Great Commission is a command? O...I guess you do. You said that the baptism Jesus told us to perform was Spirit baptism. Here's your quote:

Quote:
I also believe that the Baptism that Christ refers to in Matthew 28 refers to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as well:
19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.



This is quite a claim. One which has no Biblical support, nor early church witness. Do you really think that you can take your 21st century thoughts and culture and impose them upon a gospel which was first given, perpetuated, and preserved in the first century? Now I admit that Christ transcends culture and time. But what I am referring to is a clear concensus that we possess of early church practice (Both Biblical and first and second century). This clearly removes doubt as to what the Scriptures mean and what is to be implemented.

As my brother so truly pointed out, How can WE baptize anyone in the Holy Spirit? And of course the answer is: We can't. Jesus is the baptizer in the Holy Ghost. Remember what John said? He will baptize you with the Holy Ghost. (Luke 3:16) On the day of Pentecost, the apostle Peter clearly pointed out that it was Jesus who poured out the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:33)

philologos also pointed out the house of Cornelius. We could add more if you wish.

The whole picture of baptism in water by immersion is the union with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. Though it is a physical act, yet it is spiritual for those whose consciences and hearts are trusting in God.

The command of Acts 2:38 to all who would be saved is "repent...and be baptized...for (or "into" if you will) the remission of sins..." Then the promise of the Father comes, "and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Notice it doesn't say either "baptism" or "indwelling" here. It just says gift. Now let me ask you, Why do you need to receive something you already have?? The answer is, of course, you don't. The Holy Ghost here is the "gift" that was poured out.

This seems to be the pattern we see in Acts 8 in Samaria:

Acts 8:12 "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women."

(v.14-17) "Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."

OK, notice that first they believed (repentance is assumed). Then they were baptized in water. Then later they "received" the Holy Ghost Himself.

Verse 16 makes this extremely clear. It says that the Holy Ghost was fallen upon NONE OF THEM. Only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

So, my friend Steve, why were they baptized in water, but not receive the Holy Ghost according to what we read here?

We know that if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Rom. 8:9) Just when DID they get born again? Just when DID they FIRST receive the Holy Ghost. This Scripture seems to say that it wasn't until AFTER they believed and were baptized. What say you?

RT

 2005/6/10 15:52Profile









 Re:

Nasher posted:
So I suppose you don't think that the Great Commission is a command? O...I guess you do. You said that the baptism Jesus told us to perform was Spirit baptism. Here's your quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I also believe that the Baptism that Christ refers to in Matthew 28 refers to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as well:
19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever's response:
Who exactly did Jesus Himself ever water baptize, ever?

How many did Paul water baptize during his entire ministry- one or two?

Jesus has told us that He did not come to baptize with water, like John (the Baptist) did, but he came to baptize with the Holy Spirit.

He told us this after his crucifixion and resurrection, after sin was paid for. The Disciples had been water baptising from the beginning, but He never performed one Himself that is recorded in the Bible.

Specifically, in Acts 1 He said:

5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.............8. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


Water baptism performed by John the Baptist, as well as the Disciples, was merely a picture ( a type) of the real Baptism that would take place at Pentecost, 50 days after the Resurrection.

Just the same as the the sacrifice of millions of bulls, goats, rams & lambs, pigeons, etc. that took place twice daily at the morning and evening sacrifice for over 1,500 years were only a "picture", a "type" of the real sacrifice that took place once and for all on Calvary.

We are commanded to Baptize New Believers into the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not to water baptize them. I was baptized in water, and most of us have been. But it was not the command. The command was made clear in Acts, after the Crucifixion and resurrection. Check out Matthew 28 and you will see that Christ gives this command to baptize after His death and resurrection. The same is true if you check out Mark 16:15-18 you will see the same thing. Also in Mark it refers to the signs that follow those that believe and have been baptized in the Holy Spirit: "In My Name they shall cast out Devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them, they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall be healed.

That hardly sounds like the typical believer that I am aware of. The signs referred to will follow the Believer Baptized in the Holy Ghost.



That is the way I see it.

The proof is the thief on the Cross. He was never water baptized, ever and he went to paradise with Christ that very day.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/10 20:57









 Re:

So are you stating that the Only ONE baptism that is spoke of is that of Jesus, when you RECEIVE the Holy Spirit? thats what im getting outta this.

 2005/6/10 23:12









 Re:

Nasher said:
How can we baptise anyone in the Holy Spirit?

Stever's response:

What Does the Bible Say About...the Baptism in the Holy Spirit?

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" (Matthew 3:11).

"And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God" (John 1:32-34).

The baptism in the Holy Ghost is a crisis experience just as our initial conversion experience was. We cannot be gradually baptized in the Holy Spirit, just as we cannot be gradually baptized in water. Certainly we can be gradually filled with God's Spirit, but one day that "filling" will spill over into a baptism or complete immersion in the Holy Ghost. Many believe they need not ask for this experience because they think they receive the Holy Spirit at conversion. While this is true in the sense that the Holy Spirit comes upon us, and in us, to plant the seed of life in Christ, it is not true that we are completely filled with His Spirit unless we ask for it. "...How much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:13).

Many people have been "born again" and have the Holy Spirit working in their lives, but have never received the baptism in the Holy Ghost which equips them for service and gives them the power needed to overcome in Christ. "For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence...But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:5 and 8). If you, as a Christian, have not known the power of God in being able to overcome sin, to witness and to know God in His fullness, then you need to ask God for the baptism in the Holy Ghost. There were also Christians in Paul's day who did not know about the power that was available to them. We find this recorded in Acts 19:2-6:

"He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. THEN SAID PAUL, JOHN VERILY BAPTIZED WITH THE BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE, SAYING UNTO THE PEOPLE, THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE ON HIM WHICH SHOULD COME AFTER HIM, THAT IS, ON CHRIST JESUS. WHEN THEY HEARD THIS, THEY WERE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS. AND WHEN PAUL HAD LAID HIS HANDS UPON THEM, THE HOLY GHOST CAME ON THEM; AND THEY SPAKE WITH TONGUES, AND PROPHESIED."

THIS SCRIPTURE CLEARLY SHOWS US THERE IS MORE THAN ONE KIND OF BAPTISM. THESE CHRISTIANS HAD RECEIVED WATER BAPTISM, BUT NOT THE HOLY GHOST BAPTISM UNTIL PAUL LAID HIS HANDS ON THEM AND PRAYED. WE ALSO SEE THAT THE GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ACCOMPANY THIS BAPTISM, AS THEY SPOKE IN TONGUES AND PROPHESIED.

Another account of this taking place is found in Acts 8:14-20: "Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money."

HOLY SPIRIT IS A GIFT

Still again we find an account of the gift of the Holy Spirit being given in Acts 11:14-17:

"Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. For as much then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?"

God's gift of the Holy Ghost is promised to us today and not just for the saints back then as we find Peter saying, "...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call" (Acts 2:38-39). The Holy Ghost is God's gift to us. As we are baptized in His Spirit we will find that we will experience the gift of speaking in tongues, plus all the other gifts of the Spirit when needed, if we continue to follow Him (I Corinthians 12, 13 and 14). These are God's gifts of power to enable us to accomplish the task to which we have been commissioned. Although the gift has been abused by many, we should not take lightly the Lord's words to us in John 7:37b-39,

"...Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

Acts 2:2-4 says, "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

If the disciples of the Lord needed to be filled with the Holy Ghost then, how much more do we need to be filled in our day? We should not allow what other men think or say about the Baptism in the Holy Ghost to prevent us from seeking this wonderful blessing. We should seek the Lord with an humble heart for the truth of what is written in the Bible and ask Him to baptize us in the Holy Spirit. We can trust Him to show us the truth if we come to Him with an open heart and mind with a willingness to obey Him.

"Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him (Acts 5:28-32)."
-----------------------

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/11 1:16





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