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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What place does baptism have in Biblical salvation?

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 Re:

Hi Stever, Ron and Nasher

Quote:
I question whether or not we have all been 'commanded to witness'. We have been told that we shall 'be witnesses' which is something quite different.



I am relieved to 'get' this subtle difference, as it explains some experiences I've had, in which I have not mentioned 'Christ' or 'Christian' but have been identified as a Christian and received great respect on account of the assumptions made by the other party. On some occasions, the other person is wishing to confess their sin - to me? - presumably because they feel some inner conviction which only God can bring about in these situations. I am aware it is possible to be treated badly, because of the Name of Christ, but that is slightly less disconcerting, in view of one's sense of one's own inadequacy and history. Yes, I do state verbally my allegiance to Christ, many times. Are not both of these types of situation equally valid in the matter of 'being' a 'witness'?

Or, when you talk about 'witnessing' Stever, do you mean something about pressing individuals to make a commitment to follow Christ?

 2005/6/7 11:08
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

but these are not the imperative use of the English 'shall' but the simple future tense of the verb to witness. Both of the verses you quote are using the future tense. The Matt 24 reference has the future tense in the passive mood. 'it will happen'. In neither of these instances is the verb in the imperative ie a command but in each case is a statement of what will surely take place.

You have misunderstood what Webster is telling you about language. This is always the danger of getting our interpretations from Dictionaries. I have frequently drawn attention to this danger in these forums.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/7 16:31Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I take it by your various posts on this subject that you do not believe in witnessing to the lost.



and that, my friend, is just another of your mistaken presumptions.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/7 16:33Profile









 Re:

Stever said:
Christ has commanded us (believers) to Witness to the Lost. It sounds very clear to me.
-------------------------------------------------

Nasher said:
Stever, if Christ commands us to do something, can we choose not to obey him? - Yes

When Christ says that you shall do something (or that the end shall come) - will you do it? - Yes

Therefore there is a difference, a big one.
------------------

Stever's response: I am not a Greek grammer expert. What I see from God's word tells me that the Disciples witnessed to the lost until their dying days- all of them. Starting at Pentecost and continuing all the way through the New Testament, that is what believers were all about. I choose to err on the side of example, than on the side of Koine Greek that I really know nothing about.
-----------
Nasher said:
On another note, the Holy Spirit does not soften our heart, our heart is incurable (Jeremiah 17:9 - Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable -- who doth know it?)
The Holy Spirit has to remove out heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26 - A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.)

Stever's response: I really have to agree with you. I have continously used the following when I am praying for someone who is not saved-- Father, in Jesus name, I lift up __________. I ask that you open his/her eyes, soften his/her heart, and draw him/her to you. etc.......................
I will now change it to the correct "give him/her a new heart.

With that being said, I know that God did not ignore my previous prayers because many of them have been answered.

God bless,

Stever


 2005/6/8 0:13









 Re:

Stever said:
Christ has commanded us (believers) to Witness to the Lost. It sounds very clear to me.




Ron B. said:
but these are not the imperative use of the English 'shall' but the simple future tense of the verb to witness. Both of the verses you quote are using the future tense. The Matt 24 reference has the future tense in the passive mood. 'it will happen'. In neither of these instances is the verb in the imperative ie a command but in each case is a statement of what will surely take place.

You have misunderstood what Webster is telling you about language. This is always the danger of getting our interpretations from Dictionaries. I have frequently drawn attention to this danger in these forums.




Stever's response:

I am not a Greek grammer expert. What I see from God's word tells me that the Disciples witnessed to the lost until their dying days- all of them. Starting at Pentecost and continuing all the way through the New Testament, that is what believers were all about. I choose to err on the side of example, than on the side of Koine Greek that I really know nothing about.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/8 0:25
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: opportunity

Stever,

Quote:
I take it by your various posts on this subject that you do not believe in witnessing to the lost.



This is a good opportunity to once again bring up something of import here, the use of the search function on the main page. It can go a long way in helping to not make rash assumptions and help clarify many things. Stever, if you were to do a bit of research the gentleman you are referring to here has been a pastor for over 40 years, has quite a bit of knowledge and a wonderful heart for teaching, though that often gets missed strangely enough... By the way, "we" are not primarily Charismatic in the image of what that conjures up anymore, some may not have a problem with that labeling, just some prefer no labels whatsoever, including abominations, I mean denominations (Ravenhill) ;-)


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/6/8 1:04Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I am not a Greek grammer expert. What I see from God's word tells me that the Disciples witnessed to the lost until their dying days- all of them. Starting at Pentecost and continuing all the way through the New Testament, that is what believers were all about. I choose to err on the side of example, than on the side of Koine Greek that I really know nothing about.


The issue has not been their example but whether or not all believers have received a 'command to witness'. I know what the disciples did but to make a promise into a command is to bring in a law-yoke not a blessing.

If you know 'nothing' about koine Greek I would caution you again regarding the danger of finding your answers from an English dictionary.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/8 5:55Profile









 Re:

Ron B. said:
The issue has not been their example but whether or not all believers have received a 'command to witness'. I know what the disciples did but to make a promise into a command is to bring in a law-yoke not a blessing.

If you know 'nothing' about koine Greek I would caution you again regarding the danger of finding your answers from an English dictionary.
--------------------------

Stever's response:

It is probably a good thing to just end this thread here. I really can't see the harm in believers in Jesus Christ witnessing to the lost. The first Disciples were definitely involved in this activity, in fact most of them, other than John, died a martyrs death because of their beliefs and their unwillingness to accept Ceasar as Lord.

As for me, I will continue what God, through the power of the Holy Spirit has put on my heart to do- to witness to those that I am led to witness, to pray for those that I am led to pray for.

My question for you, Pastor Ron B. is: At the end of each service, do you have an altar call? Do you invite those that would like to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior to come forward?

I would really like to know.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/8 11:03
taco
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:



Quote:
My question for you, Pastor Ron B. is: At the end of each service, do you have an altar call? Do you invite those that would like to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior to come forward?

I would really like to know.



"The book of the Acts" is an aptly named manuscript. I have often heard it said that it should be called the acts of the believers or the acts of the Holy Spirit. It is, of course, a record of the work of the Holy Spirit- but its his work demonstrated in and through the apostles actions.

Its not a book primarily about church meetings, government or practice. It is a book that describes the ministry of those "sent out" to bear witness to the ressurection of Christ.

All believers are called to "show forth the praises of him...", to "be ready to give an answer...". But all are not sent out either as apostles or evangelists.

Many of the 'gatherings' described in Acts are not church meetings per se. They are 'outreaches' of the ministry of certain ones that God had equipped to do the work whereunto he called them.

There [b]are[/b] some examples of meetings of the church;
Acts 15 is the most striking. Here we see the church really functioning as the ecclesia that it was called to be. Reaching a conclusion to a dilema with the words "it seemed good to the holy Spirit and to us..." this is a church meeting!. Also the conversation between Paul and the believers in Troas (acts 20) would be an example.

Our best window into the meeting of a church is to be found in 1Cor chs 11-14 (particularly 14). Here the possibility of an unbeliever coming amongst the gathering is ackowledged but it is the prophetic word that convicts him; not an evangelistic message.

 2005/6/8 11:23Profile









 Re:

Mike (Ravenhill) said:
"It can go a long way in helping to not make rash assumptions and help clarify many things. Stever, if you were to do a bit of research the gentleman you are referring to here has been a pastor for over 40 years, has quite a bit of knowledge and a wonderful heart for teaching, though that often gets missed strangely enough... By the way, "we" are not primarily Charismatic in the image of what that conjures up anymore, some may not have a problem with that labeling, just some prefer no labels whatsoever, including abominations, I mean denominations (Ravenhill) "
--------------------------

Stever's response:

Dear Mike: I was not responding to Ron B.'s remarks because he was a Pastor- I have known many Pastors who are great teachers and students of God's word, but at the same time have never had an altar call in their entire life. If you will go back and review the statements that Ron B. made in regards to "heart", etc. etc. and his specific reference to Tozer and Cymbala you might come to the same conclusion that I did- that he is more focused on scholarship and being "right" that on winning souls for Christ.

If I am mistaken about my views, then I surely apologize.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/8 11:29





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