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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What place does baptism have in Biblical salvation?

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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Let me ask you something. What is the difference between receiving the "indwelling" of the Spirit and receiving the "baptism" in the Spirit SCRIPTURALLY?


Can I start the answer with a question? Can you compare a process with an event?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/5 3:31Profile









 Re:

RT said:
"It is actually the baptism "in" the Spirit, not of. It is Jesus who baptizes.

Let me ask you something. What is the difference between receiving the "indwelling" of the Spirit and receiving the "baptism" in the Spirit SCRIPTURALLY?

Before you answer, please know that I was raised and educated in Classical Pentecostalism. So I am well familiar with this issue. I am a Biblicist above all and will go with Scripture on any given issue. You seem to be the same way. So let's talk about this. Should be edifying for both of us.

RT"


Stever's response:

This has always been a divisive issue in the Church. I have no problem in identifying the difference in my own life. What is the difference? Just one example- prior to being Spirit filled to the "overflow" I was totally into getting ready for Y2K. You name it, I had it. Food Storage, Diesel Generator and invertors,battery bank, gold, silver, etc. etc. etc. I became baptized in the Holy Spirit on 6/4/1999 and I immeditely had discernment about the upcoming non-event and lost all interest in Y2K.

I could give you many examples of how the Holy Spirit has changed my life, as well as that of my wife, but really don't want to go there now.

Acts 2:38 tells us:
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We all receive the “gift of the Holy Spirit” when we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. The Holy Spirit lives within each of our hearts. I was baptized many years ago with water baptism, but water baptism was not necessary to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit that lives within each of our (believers in Jesus Christ’s) hearts.That is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is indeed an event. When it happens to you it is an event that you will never forget, it is an experience. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the “overflow” that we receive of this same spirit, that empowers us to be about His business.

John 7:38-39
38. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Being baptized with the Holy Spirit is not just a one time event. Each day that I awake, I pray to be filled again to overflowing, in order to do the work that God has prepared for me for this day.

God bless,


Stever

 2005/6/5 11:51
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
We all receive the “gift of the Holy Spirit” when we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.


Stever

This is not a hostile comment but just one to explain why I find some of these issues difficult to discuss. The phrase 'accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour' has no biblical meaning. I no longer have any idea what it is supposed to mean. It seems to mean some kind of personal response to the presentation of the gospel but is without precedent in the scripture.

This is almost where SI began with Tozer's questioning of evangelical phraseology and its consequences in genuine experiences of God. I think it is safe to say that if we did not have the phraseology of 'accepting Christ' in so much of our modern evangelicalism it would be impossible to reconstruct its meaning from scripture.

The phrase has become a standard axiom of evangelical expresssion but I cannot find anything scripturally that even approximates to it. It seems to reduce to 'heard some basic truths and prayed a basic prayer'. But I can't find this experience in the Bible so I don't understand what can be meant by saying that any who have gone through this process have 'received the Holy Spirit'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/5 19:01Profile









 Re:

Ron B. said:
This is almost where SI began with Tozer's questioning of evangelical phraseology and its consequences in genuine experiences of God. I think it is safe to say that if we did not have the phraseology of 'accepting Christ' in so much of our modern evangelicalism it would be impossible to reconstruct its meaning from scripture.

The phrase has become a standard axiom of evangelical expresssion but I cannot find anything scripturally that even approximates to it. It seems to reduce to 'heard some basic truths and prayed a basic prayer'. But I can't find this experience in the Bible so I don't understand what can be meant by saying that any who have gone through this process have 'received the Holy Spirit'.
------------------
Stever's response:

The Roman road is where I like to go to when I am leading someone to the Lord. The "requirements" for being saved are spelled out in Romans 10:9. Specifically:
9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
------------
That is all that I mean. At this point in time, upon my/your belief in Jesus Christ as LORD and SAVIOR -at this point in time the Holy Spirit comes to live in our heart,and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and He dwells in each of our hearts.

In regards to having "received the Holy Spirit after being saved, there are many verses to choose from- I'll just use one here:
Ephesians 1:13-14
" 13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/5 20:48
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Stever writes:

Quote:
In regards to having "received the Holy Spirit after being saved, there are many verses to choose from- I'll just use one here:
Ephesians 1:13-14
" 13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

This verse could equally be referring to an event post-belief and in fact Paul's earlier word to the Ephesians is significant 'having believed did you receive?' Acts 19. This verse plainly indicates that whatever 'believe' means in Acts 19 it is not a quarantee that the Spirit has been received. If it were the question would make no sense.

I know the verses you have quoted but the problem is that most of the verbs and nouns have now be dramatically devalued in modern evangelicalism. For example, what does it mean to 'believe in thine heart' and why would Paul add the qualifying phrase 'in thine heart' if some other kind of belief were not possible. The question then is 'is evangelical belief a "in the heart" belief?'

'Calling upon the name of the Lord' is certainly not repeating a 'sinner's prayer' as [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=117]Jim Cymbala[/url] has made very clear.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/6 3:47Profile









 Re:

Ron B. said:

This verse could equally be referring to an event post-belief and in fact Paul's earlier word to the Ephesians is significant 'having believed did you receive?' Acts 19. This verse plainly indicates that whatever 'believe' means in Acts 19 it is not a quarantee that the Spirit has been received. If it were the question would make no sense.

I know the verses you have quoted but the problem is that most of the verbs and nouns have now be dramatically devalued in modern evangelicalism. For example, what does it mean to 'believe in thine heart' and why would Paul add the qualifying phrase 'in thine heart' if some other kind of belief were not possible. The question then is 'is evangelical belief a "in the heart" belief?'

'Calling upon the name of the Lord' is certainly not repeating a 'sinner's prayer' as Jim Cymbala has made very clear.




Stever's response: Here are a few more verses from God's Word:

Romans 5:1-5
1. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4. And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5. AND HOPE MAKETH NOT ASHAMED; BECAUSE THE LOVE OF GOD IS SHED ABROAD IN OUR HEARTS BY THE HOLY GHOST WHICH IS GIVEN UNTO US.

Gal 4:6-7
6. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the SPIRIT (THE HOLY SPIRIT) OF HIS SON INTO YOUR HEARTS, CRYING, ABBA, FATHER.
7. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Ephesians 3:16-19
16. That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17. THAT CHRIST MAY DWELL IN YOUR HEARTS BY FAITH; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18. May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19. And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Bob, as far as your statement:"I know the verses you have quoted but the problem is that most of the verbs and nouns have now be dramatically devalued in modern evangelicalism."-----I would have to agree with you. Todays Seminaries are full of heresy and false teaching. They also rely on the Newer Bible Versions, which also takes away the blood and the power of repentence.

As far as:"what does it mean to 'believe in thine heart' and why would Paul add the qualifying phrase 'in thine heart' if some other kind of belief were not possible. The question then is 'is evangelical belief a "in the heart" belief?'"----------------------------------------
Stever's response:
Throughout the Old and the New Testament we find that God examines the heart. The heart of the man is the measure of the man. The word for heart appears approximately 602 times in the Old Testament and 104 times in the New Testament. The word Hearts appears 54 times in the Old Testament and 61 times in the New Testament.

Christ examines our hearts. He is the one that knows what is there, not you, nor me. When the Holy Spirit leads me to witness to someone, Christ knows if it is for real or not. I,as a Disciple of Jesus Christ, have been commanded to witness to the lost. We are all commanded to witness, not just Pastors and "Evangelists". We are all commanded to be Evangelists [when we go out to the office, to the store, to the park, on vacation, etc.etc. etc.] and to share the Gospel with the lost.

My question to you Bob is: Do you witness to your lost brothers and sister's? From the questions that you have asked here, I seriously doubt that you have ever done so, ever.

Christ is the one that we have to face, Christ, the Word of God who: 12. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, AND IS A DISCERNER OF THE THOUGHTS AND INTENTS OF THE HEART
13. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/6 12:04
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Stever writes:

Quote:
Christ examines our hearts. He is the one that knows what is there, not you, nor me. When the Holy Spirit leads me to witness to someone, Christ knows if it is for real or not.


So does that mean we can know whether or not we have received the Spirit?

Incidentally, it is not possible to 'receive the Spirit' and not be a witness. Jesus said so very plainly...“But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” (Acts 1:8, ASV) I question whether or not we have all been 'commanded to witness'. We have been told that we shall 'be witnesses' which is something quite different.

You will notice that He did not say 'you ought to' but 'you shall'. I repeat, it is not possible 'to receive the power of the Holy Spirit coming upon you' and not to witness.

Incidentally, too, you have still not explained to me what you think 'accepting Christ as Lord and Saviour' actually means.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/6 13:36Profile









 Re:

Ron B. Quoted:
Incidentally, too, you have still not explained to me what you think 'accepting Christ as Lord and Saviour' actually means.


Stever's response:
I thought that I was quite clear by quoting Romans 10:9.

What I was talking about when I said that "Christ is the only one that knows the heart of an individual"-- I meant exactly that. I know my own heart and my own heart is committed to Christ. I don't know your heart, only Christ and you know what is there.



when I am led by the Holy Spirit to witness to someone, and they do accept Jesus Christ with their mouth (to me and whoever else is in the same room) and say that they believe that Jesus Christ died on the Cross for their sins, resurrected from the dead, and now sits at the right hand of God I can do nothing more than believe them. But I am still never certain about the end result, only Christ is. Only Christ sees the heart, only Christ knows the end from the beginning, only Christ knows what will be the situation at the end of that persons life.

Just like the parable of the sower in Matthew 13:

18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.



I take it by your various posts on this subject that you do not believe in witnessing to the lost. I used to go to a Church that never had an altar call. When I asked the Pastor about it, he indicated that they were never used until Spurgeon (or someone like that), and that he did not believe in altar calls.

The reason he didn't believe in it is because although he was a wonderful man and knew the Bible quite well, he had no heart for the lost. I didn't either, although I had received Christ as my Lord and Savior & was Baptized in water(became a Christian and gave up the world and started following HIM) many years before. It was not until I was Spirit Filled (Baptized by the Holy Spirit) that my eyes were opened, and my heart was softened for the lost. I actually had this conversation with my Pastor shortly after being Spirit Filled, because the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to what had been going on for over 3 years while we were members of this same Church.

Are people "saved" by the likes of Billy Graham and other Evangelists? No, they are saved by the Holy Spirit who uses believers that witness to the lost. The Holy Spirit is the One that softens the heart, opens the eyes and draws each of us from the pit of hell. However, many, many, many people that were saved at one of these Billy Graham rallys's will sure be glad to see Billy in Heaven. I know that I will, because he led me to the Lord---a young man who had been raised in the New Age and thought he was going to a concert. By the time Billy finished sharing with me and 10,000 others about the Gospel, I was one of the thousands that came forward!



My question to you Ron is:
Have you ever witnessed to the lost, ever? Does the Holy Spirit reveal to you who to witness to?

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/6 22:10









 Re:

Ron B. said:
"Incidentally, it is not possible to 'receive the Spirit' and not be a witness. Jesus said so very plainly.. ...“But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” (Acts 1:8, ASV) I QUESTION WHETHER OR NOT WE HAVE ALL BEEN 'COMMANDED TO WITNESS'. We have been told that WE SHALL 'be witnesses' which is something quite different.

----------------------------

Stever's response:
"Matt 24:14

“14. And this gospel of the kingdom SHALL be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then SHALL the end come.”

Acts 1:8-9
8. But ye SHALL receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye SHALL be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Acts 1:8 states that you/me shall, not might, not should, not could-----but shall.

According to Noah Websters 1828 Dictionary of the English language I find further clarification of what SHALL meant in the past:

SHALL- Saxon, scealan, scylan, to be OBLIGED. It coincides in significaion nearly with OUGHT, it is a DUTY, it is NECESSARY.

Christ has commanded us (believers) to Witness to the Lost. It sounds very clear to me.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/7 1:48
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Christ has commanded us (believers) to Witness to the Lost. It sounds very clear to me.



Stever, if Christ commands us to do something, can we choose not to obey him? - Yes

When Christ says that you shall do something (or that the end shall come) - will you do it? - Yes

Therefore there is a difference, a big one.


On another note, the Holy Spirit does not soften our heart, our heart is incurable (Jeremiah 17:9 - Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable -- who doth know it?)
The Holy Spirit has to remove out heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26 - A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.)


_________________
Mark Nash

 2005/6/7 10:34Profile





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