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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What place does baptism have in Biblical salvation?

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 Re: The place of water baptism in Biblical salvation - re RobertW

Robert,

Quote:
If we don't have the foundation of who God is- we don't have anything at all. Some things are simply not up for grabs.


I take your point and felt this was the reason philologos shied away from saying anything which could be 'a recipe for Trinitaran chaos' but I was interested in understanding more, as I read a long time ago that the 'us' in 'Let us make man..' - yes, it's plural, but, there is another word in Hebrew much less often used, which implies 'several'. I have known this for so long, that I cannot say it would alter my understanding, except by enhancing it. That's why I was interested to have it explained more fully. But, perhaps this is not the ideal place.

I hope philologos comes back with more about the 'solid Biblical concept' of 'the Spirit of the Son'. I'm sure this will be a valuable study.

 2005/6/17 14:34
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Joined: 2005/4/22
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 Re:

Quote:
RT: This brings up a topic on the thread here about Oneness Pentecostals. While they may be accused of oversimplification, Trinitarians could be accused of believing in three entities, or three Gods. Remember, it was Tertullian who first came up with the Trinity. The apostles never to our knowledge confessed this, nor did Christ.

How can we justify confessing something that neither Christ nor the apostles confessed??


Robert: Hi RT,

I am quite surprised that you would cast doubt upon Trinitarian Doctrine. The danger I see in this mindset is that suddenly everything is up for grabs. The fundamentals of Christianity are anvils that have worn out many of hammar.



I am not casting doubt on ANY concept or doctrine per se. At least not to any alarming degree. I am only contending for terms that are Biblically based. What is so alarming about that??

Nothing is "up for grabs." We are all responsible to believe the Truth. The "fundamentals of Christianity" are what Christ and the apostles taught and confessed. No term of "trinity" there.

Quote:
This is simply not true. It was the ante-nicene apologists that had to come in and stamp out the heresy that was cropping up like weeds. The Church had to defend itself against all types of "Wolves" that were coming in not sparing the flock.



Do you really think the Jesus had a lack of foresight concerning the heresies that would spring up in the second century? That is unthinkable.

[b]The Bible is the anvil that has worn out many a hammer, NOT SECEOND CENTURY WRITINGS![/b]

RT

 2005/6/17 18:46Profile
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 Re: Deity of Christ

Quote:
Questioning the Deity of Christ?



I have done NOTHING to deny the deity of Christ here. I confess the Jesus is God most readily.

Go back and read my post. I am contending for Biblical terminology and doctrine. The mystery is the incarnation, not a concept of trinity. You cannot start with something the Scripture never directs us to. The new revelation of the NT is Christ. It is Jesus who declares the Father. (Jn. 1:18 KJV)

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." [1 Corinthians 8:6]

Start in a place like this, not with Tertullian. Just a helpful suggestion.

RT

 2005/6/17 18:52Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
RT's entire post alarmed me.



Only because it was outside of your religious box. I was on firm Scriptural ground. Do you believe your creeds and church doctrinal statement above Scripture? No word "trinity" or attempt to teach "trinity" in Scripture. No apple illustrations in the Bible.

Quote:
If we don't have the foundation of who God is- we don't have anything at all. Some things are simply not up for grabs.



Amen. It's called the Bible. And it is definitely NOT up for grabs.

Quote:
If I misread what was said concerning the Deity of Christ or the Trinity- disregard the earlier post please



No problem. I totally disregard it.

As to the JW's. You might want to stick with the Bible and not try your "trinity" terms if you want to win them. They'll point out that the Bible never contends for a "trinity" and they'll be right. Sinner lost.

RT

 2005/6/17 18:58Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
This would work well if everyone could come to a consensus on who/what the "Godhead" consists of.



This would be easy if we all stuck to confessing Scripture as you have gone on to do. We'd all have a consensus.

I have a problem with us trying to go way beyond Scripture and get all tangled up trying to explain some things for which the Bible gives limited explanation for. We must be silent where Scripture is silent. We must be content with the revelation we now possess, longing for the day in which we will no longer know in part.

Just think how much more unified the body of Christ would be if we all agreed to stick to confessing what the Bible says about things like this.

Yes interpretation is important, but it would sure be a WHOLE LOT EASIER if we wouldn't try to add new concepts and new terms. This only brings division, as men are bound do disagree with one another about so-called "essentials" that have their origin in the mind of man.

How much more authority is there when we can boldly teach and interpret the very words of God??

Please don't go and say that I am saying that our interpretation of the Bible isn't important. It is essential. But adding non-Biblical terms and ascribing to them Biblical authority is not wise and WILL bring confusion.

RT

 2005/6/17 19:08Profile
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 Re: What place does baptism have in Biblical salvation?

Before I start out, I want to make a distinction. Water baptism is the baptism (gasp!) that takes place in the water. It’s the outward sign of an inward change, representative of being buried in death with Christ (going under the water) and rising again to a new life (coming up from the water) as a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). That inward change is what I’d refer to as the spiritual baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Those of you familiar with the Pentecostal doctrines and their form of “Christian-ese” might think of my use of that phrase, “baptism of the Holy Spirit” in those terms, specifically related to the doling out of spiritual gifts…but set that aside, because I’m solely referring to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within a reborn believer.
Christ teaches Nicodemus in John 3 that a person must be born twice – once physically, and once spiritually – before they could see God’s kingdom. Paul tells the Galatians that it doesn’t matter if a person is circumcised or not; all that matters is that they’re a new person in Christ (Galatians 6:15).
My point in citing those two examples is this: the physical does not matter…it is on the spiritual that our salvation depends.
God would not let our salvation depend upon the presence of water. Perhaps you’ve heard the example of a man being saved in the desert, with no water in sight. Does he not get to worship God at the throne because he died of thirst before being able to find that oasis to be baptized in? Is a man who accepts Christ on his deathbed, then dies before a vat of water could be brought to his room, denied Heaven? God is just. He’s not going to look at a person on the Judgment Day and turn them away because they weren’t able to be baptized.
But note my keywords there! “Weren’t able to be”. Jesus DID command His followers to be baptized (Matthew 28:19). If a Christian is able, they must obey Christ’s command, lest it be counted as a sin. Yes, we’re forgiven our sins by the blood of Christ, but I don’t want it on my conscience (or on the conscience’s of my capable brother’s and sister’s) that I set one more sin unnecessarily upon His shoulders.


_________________
Mary M.

 2005/6/17 21:15Profile









 Re:

Mary (Chosen7stone) said:

"My point in citing those two examples is this: the physical does not matter…it is on the spiritual that our salvation depends.
God would not let our salvation depend upon the presence of water. Perhaps you’ve heard the example of a man being saved in the desert, with no water in sight. Does he not get to worship God at the throne because he died of thirst before being able to find that oasis to be baptized in? Is a man who accepts Christ on his deathbed, then dies before a vat of water could be brought to his room, denied Heaven? God is just. He’s not going to look at a person on the Judgment Day and turn them away because they weren’t able to be baptized.
But note my keywords there! “Weren’t able to be”. Jesus DID command His followers to be baptized (Matthew 28:19). If a Christian is able, they must obey Christ’s command, lest it be counted as a sin. Yes, we’re forgiven our sins by the blood of Christ, but I don’t want it on my conscience (or on the conscience’s of my capable brother’s and sister’s) that I set one more sin unnecessarily upon His shoulders."
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Stever's response:

Mary, I agree with everything you have to say above. This has been my point exactly since the beginning, only I did not have the clarification that you have provided here. We are human beings trying to understand the command of the God.

Since it is NOT quite clear--- about what baptism Christ is talking about? Was it the water baptism that John performed, as well as Jesus's Disciples [although Jesus never performed one water Baptism Himself, yet He was water baptised by Johm] or the Spiritual Baptism (Baptism of the Holy Ghost) that took place at Pentecost (and continued afterwards as recorded by Paul-- where they layed hands on the believer that asked for the Spirit Baptism of the Holy Ghost. Are we commanded to baptise the believer in water,or bapise the believer in the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands?

Since it is not certain, I think it is a good idea to perform both baptisms on believers. The first one [Baptism in water] when they are saved, and the 2nd one when they request, when they ask, to be baptized in the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/17 22:52
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 Re:

I'm a little unclear on baptism of the Holy Spirit in the fashion that you describe...what I mean to say is, I know what you're talking about, but I was never quite certain if I accepted that doctrine or not. In any case, that's a discussion for PMs, because this thread is about water baptism.
I do think it's important to encourage believers to be water bapitized. Perhaps it is unclear as to which baptism Christ was speaking of in Matthew 28, but what is clear is what the early church did, and they believed themselves to be following Christ's command in baptizing new believers in water. And since they were actually THERE when Christ spoke those commands, I'll trust them on it. ;)


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Mary M.

 2005/6/17 23:26Profile
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 Re:

...golly, there's an awful lot of posts on this thread... :eek:


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Mary M.

 2005/6/17 23:28Profile









 Re:

Which baptism did Christ command us to perform?

John the Baptist has this to say in Matthew 3
11. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Luke 3:16
16. John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Acts 1 gives the same analysis as above:

4. And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

But then Christ adds:
Acts 1:8
"8. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

The reference to power is definitely missing in most Christians. It sure was missing in me, for many, many years.

We find out more about this power in Acts 2---They all became bold, and witnessed to the lost with authority.

Born of the Spirit, Baptised in the Spirit
Every true Christian is born of the Spirit. As such they have experienced the work of the Holy Spirit in a number of important ways. These ways include but are not limited to: conviction, regeneration and the witness of the Spirit in our lives that we are children of God. However, the dimension of power that God wants for His children can only be reached through the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. It is God's will that every Christian be baptised in the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38,39).

Even though some Christians achieve results without the actual baptism in the Holy Spirit, they would achieve more if they yielded to God so as to receive the Baptism in the Spirit. It is possible for a Christian to recognise many aspects of the Holy Spirit's work and enjoy a measure of His blessing in life and ministry, without ever being baptised in the Spirit in the Biblical way.

Some say that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit no longer exists today. Others take another approach and say that EVERY born again Christian was baptised in the Spirit at his conversion. Both kinds of teaching have the effect of robbing believers of something very important that Christ provided for them as part of their necessary inheritance in this life.

We will see from the Bible that the baptism in the Spirit is not the same as regeneration.---

It is important that we do not allow tradition - even "evangelical tradition" - to take a higher place than the Word of God in our doctrine and in our lives.

Biblical proof that these are Separate Works – 1. Being Saved (a believer and follower of Jesus Christ), and 2. Being baptized in the Holy Spirit:

Although the Bible does give examples of people who were baptised in the Spirit at the same time as their regeneration, we will see that this is not always what happens. The Book of Acts reveals that repentance, baptism in water and the baptism in the Holy Spirit, although all part of our salvation package, do not necessarily happen in the same order all the time. It is interesting to note that in Acts, where the Baptism in the Spirit happens to believers at the time of their conversion, the Bible puts emphasis on the fact that the apostles knew they were baptised in the Spirit "for they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God" (Acts 10:46; Acts 11:15- 16).

I certainly do not believe that speaking in tongues is the proof of being born again. However, I can see that consistently it is the sign accompanying the New Testament Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

It is important to state that every true born again Christian has the Holy Spirit. "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." (Romans 8:9). The Holy Spirit is given by God "to those who obey Him" (Acts 5:32). To receive Christ is an act of obedience by which the person submits to the work of the cross and becomes a new person (2 Corinthians 5:17).
The Holy Spirit enters our human spirit when we are born again of the Spirit of God (John 3). Jesus comes into us by his Spirit (John 1:12). As we grow in Christ we produce the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22,23).

However, there is an empowering by the Holy Spirit which is distinct from being born of God. We get authority (exousia) to be sons of God at the new birth (John 1:12), but we receive power (dunamis) after the Holy Spirit comes upon us and we are filled with the Holy Spirit. (Acts 1:8)

The apostles received the Holy Spirit in regeneration before the ascension when Jesus breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit." (John 20:22). They were born again of the Spirit through the resurrection of Jesus from the dead (1Peter 1:3) at that time.

But this was before the day of Pentecost. Jesus told them later to wait for the Promise of the Father in Jerusalem (Acts 1:4), for the Baptism in the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5) after they had received the Spirit in regeneration. Therefore in the case of the apostles, the Baptism in the Spirit and being born of the Spirit were two separate events. They were born of the Spirit in John 20:22 before the ascension, but were baptised in the Spirit on the day of Pentecost after the ascension. And it is important to note that only then was the promise of Mark 16:17 fulfilled in the lives of the believers then, for beginning at Pentecost "they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." (Acts 2:4).

The Samaritans believed the gospel and were baptized (Acts 8:12). Many were healed and delivered. They were born again through repentance and faith in Christ, but it was obvious to Philip that something was missing in their experience. Under Philip's ministry the believers were not baptised in the Spirit. So later, Peter and John came down that these Samaritan believers might receive the Holy Spirit as they ought to receive Him (Acts 8:14-17). The power which the apostles released was so impressive that Simon the famous magician at that time wanted to buy the ability to release this power. Of course this was an evil and foolish desire. But he wanted to be able to impress people further with the same kind of power he was seeing accompany the reception of the Holy Spirit. The Scripture does not lead us to suppose that the reception of the Holy Spirit was some kind of quiet blessing.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/17 23:29





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