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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What place does baptism have in Biblical salvation?

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
My thoughts? As it stands it is very complicated. Newberry has some points about the use of the definite article in reference to the Spirit that I will dig out and share. The 'Spirit of the Son' is a solid biblical concept
Gal. 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
but to distinguish this Spirit from the Spirit that the Father sent is close to Trinitarian chaos I think! Although Revelation does speak of 'the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth' (Rev 5:6) I'm going to bed now, that should give you something to think about until tomorrow.



Yes. and so it is whenever the issues in Pentecostal circles start playing out. When are we going to realize that any doctrine we come up with to explain our experience almost always leads to a misconstrusion of God?

Point well received!

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/6/17 10:06Profile









 Re:

Yea, i think God does have 7 spirits. But He is those 7 spirits.

Manorah, 7 candle lights. Symbolic of His Spirit.

 2005/6/17 10:50
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
This brings up a topic on the thread here about Oneness Pentecostals. While they may be accused of oversimplification, Trinitarians could be accused of believing in three entities, or three Gods. [u]Remember, it was Tertullian who first came up with the Trinity[/u]. The apostles never to our knowledge confessed this, nor did Christ.

How can we justify confessing something that neither Christ nor the apostles confessed??



Hi RT,

I am quite surprised that you would cast doubt upon Trinitarian Doctrine. The danger I see in this mindset is that suddenly everything is up for grabs. The fundamentals of Christianity are anvils that have worn out many of hammar.

Quote:
[u]Remember, it was Tertullian who first came up with the Trinity[/u].



This is simply not true. It was the ante-nicene apologists that had to come in and stamp out the heresy that was cropping up like weeds. The Church had to defend itself against all types of "Wolves" that were coming in not sparing the flock. The codification of the doctrine (One Ousia- Three Hypostases) was essential to stopping the spread of all sorts of heretical teachings stemming from the Trinity to the Deity of Christ. Like pulling the loose thread in a sweater- we go pulling on these things and the whole thing begins to unravel into a mass of confusion. All of the cults have a misunderstanding of God. Lets not start any new ones.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/6/17 11:35Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." [1 Corinthians 8:6]

You see? We can read the OT and know that there is "but one God." The issue is who is the Lord Jesus Christ?



Questioning the Deity of Christ?

Compare Isaiah 44:24 to Colossians 1:16 for starters.

[i]Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,[/i] (NASB)

TO

[i]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things have been created through Him and for Him.[/i] (NASB)


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/6/17 12:11Profile









 Re:

What is belief, and its place in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Before the Crucifixion, the Disciples dispersed (ran) in the Garden of Gethsamine. While Jesus was being interrogated by Caiaphas the high priest, Peter denied Him three times. At the crucifixion, the Disciples were standing "afar off".

Even after the resurrection, some doubted:

Matthew 28:16-17
16. Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Mark 16 tells us more of their unbelief:
11. And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12. After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13. And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14. Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

John 20 tells us about Thomas who doubted Christ:
24. But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

Here, we read that it was the first day of the week (Sunday) and they were all gathered in the upper room, with the doors shut (& probably locked) because of FEAR OF THE JEWS. Then, Jesus makes his entry into the closed room, and presented Himself to them. At this point everyone in the room now BELIEVED. Just minutes before they were all afraid of the Jews, now they are not.

Then, after their actual belief, that only Christ knows for sure, because He sees the heart, Christ breathes on them and they are saved, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit who now lives in their hearts:
19. Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23. Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
24. But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Jesus stays with them for 40 days, teaching the Disciples. On the 40th day, the day of his ascension, He said to them:

Acts 1:4-5
1. And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

And we all know the rest of the story. The experience of the Apostles is the same experience that we all have. Once we come to belief in Christ HE BREATHES on each of us and the Holy Spirit enters our hearts. This is again a spiritual, supernatural event

Romans 10:9-17 tells us what we have to do to be saved. Please note that there is no mention of water baptism:

"9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."


The only thing that most of us are lacking is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is something that we have to desire with all of our hearts, and we have to ASK HIM for this Spiritual, Supernatural baptism (that has nothing to do with water baptism).

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/17 12:41









 Re: Biblical place of water baptism in salvation - re philologos, RobertW, Yeshua

philologos,

Quote:
this are you referring to church life specifically? (In other words, you are not extrapolating it to outside the Church, to situations in which non-Christian men and Christian women interact?)

yes and yes and I have my wife's permission to say so!


When first I read your reply, I thought I understood the second 'yes' and then I realised I have a little African pidgin, in which one can say 'yes' to a negative statement because one is in agreement with it. So, I wonder whether you meant '[i]yes[/i]' the second time, because this is not the English idiom? Normally, an Englishman would say 'no. (I am not extrapolating it outside...').


Robert,

I think you've missed the beginning of this last short discussion touching the Trinity. Until you mentioned it, no-one had in any way questioned the Deity of Christ.

Yeshua,

Quote:
Yea, i think God does have 7 spirits. But He is those 7 spirits.

Manorah, 7 candle lights. Symbolic of His Spirit.


This is a good point, because the 7 lights burn from oil in one single interconnected channel.

 2005/6/17 13:15
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi dorcas,

Based upon what I read I cannot come up with any other rendering of what was being said. RT's entire post alarmed me. Understand from my vantage point revival, repentance, and the sermon issues addressed here on sermonindex are secondary to the basic fundamentals of the Christian Faith. If we don't have the foundation of who God is- we don't have anything at all. Some things are simply not up for grabs. All of my Christian life I have studied and taught the fundamentals of the faith from an apologetics viewpoint- before any of the come lately things that I involve myself with now. I mentioned earlier that certain Pentecostal's made a distinction between the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit. I did not intend at all or forsee that it would lead to the questioning of the Trinity or the Deity of Christ. If I misread what was said concerning the Deity of Christ or the Trinity- disregard the earlier post please or keep it in mind for the next time you meet up with a Jehovah's Witness.

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/6/17 13:27Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Is this seven aspects, characteristics of God's Spirit? What do you think?



Your post is the classical evangelical understanding or interpretation of the whole Seven Spirits question. I would opt here to say that it is a reference to the plurality of His (the Holy Spirit's) [u]working[/u] in the earth.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/6/17 13:32Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
This is a good point, because the 7 lights burn from oil in one single interconnected channel.



Yes and is seated upon the earth as the only light source within the Holy Place. The light that is in us is the light of the Holy Spirit. This is different than the 'light' that is in the world which is actually 'darkness.'

I see it also as a picture of Isaiah 61:

[i]The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.[/i]

Here the Holy Spirit is performing many works through the one in which the Spirit of the Lord is 'upon'.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/6/17 13:40Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I think both the Trinitarians and the Oneness folks have communication problems. Personally, I think both terms need to be trashed and replaced with Biblical words like "Godhead."



This would work well if everyone could come to a consensus on who/what the "Godhead" consists of. If there is not more than simply saying "GOD" then a term like Godhead would never be needed. Moreover men tend to try to do exactly what the passage says not to do:

[i]Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.[/i]

We cannot [i]comprehend[/i] God, but we can [i]apprehend[/i] God. This is why I gave the illustration of Space, Matter, and Time. I received that from an apologist/scientist friend of mine. When we talk about the Godhead we are always thinking in terms of ONE 'what' and THREE who's. Again the three items "length, width, and height" make up one "what"... SPACE. This corresponds to Romans"

[i]For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, [u]being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead[/u]; so that they are without excuse...[/i]. Godhead is [i]Theiotis[/i] and is translated as divine or divinity in other forms. Not only is the whole of creation in the form of a Trinity- so also is man (spirit, soul, and body). It takes the three to make ONE.

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/6/17 13:53Profile





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