SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What place does baptism have in Biblical salvation?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
The problem I am having in all this is wondering how this plays out in terms of the multitudes of people over the centuries who may not fit this model. What about them?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever's response:

They are all still saved, and will be in Heaven. They have just missed out on receiving power to witness, face to face, without fear to the lost, and many other Carismata that are provided by the Holy Spirit, that makes our Christian walk down here more of an adventure,and more fulfilling.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/15 17:11









 Re:

RobertW said:
"So do you consider yourself to have been 'saved' before your 'baptism in the Holy Spirit"? BTW I suppose I would fall into the classical pentecostal camp"

Stever's response:

Absolutely, I was saved when I received Jesus Christ as my Savior, the same pattern that the Disciples were part of. First, Christ blew on them, imparting the Holy Spirit into each believer/Disciple. Later, at pentecost they all received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. You cannot receive this baptism without being saved. Cornelius was ready, and God knew his heart, and he was Baptised in the Holy Ghost before he was baptised in water. This in itself tells me that baptism in water is only a formality that is important for the believer. The believer is now demonstrating to his family, to his community, and to the world that he is a Christian. Water is a symbol of the Holy Ghost. We are baptized into Christ's death and resurrection. Do we need water to finalize this, to complete the process? I start thinking of the brass snake in the wilderness, and how over time the Jews worshipped the brass snake, rather than the God who saved them, who the snake represented.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/15 17:25
ReceivedText
Member



Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re:

Quote:
The problem I am having in all this is wondering how this plays out in terms of the multitudes of people over the centuries who may not fit this model. What about them?



Robert, this should never be a problem where faith in the Word is concerned. We should never reject truth because of its consequences. We should simply recognize our own finite understanding and thank God for revealing His truth to us.

It would be a grave error to reconcile the Scriptures in our hearts and minds, but then go back to living in doubt because we cannot receive what they say.

Let's all receive the truth of the word like a child hearing it for the first time. Let's take it, believe it, and receive it. Amen.

RT

 2005/6/15 19:07Profile
ReceivedText
Member



Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re:

philologos,

Your last couple posts have been dynamite! I have copied and pasted them onto a Word document for future reference. Thank you for your time.

Blessings,

RT

 2005/6/15 19:09Profile
ReceivedText
Member



Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re:

Quote:
Absolutely, I was saved when I received Jesus Christ as my Savior, the same pattern that the Disciples were part of. First, Christ blew on them, imparting the Holy Spirit into each believer/Disciple.



This statement contradicts Scripture. John 20:22 was the text I used to use for the indwelling at the time of initial faith proceeded by a later baptism in the H.S.

But to say they received the Spirit when Jesus blew is to contradict His very words just a few chapters previous. Listen:

John 16:7 [b]"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."[/b]

Did you get that? Jesus said that if He didn't go away, the Comforter WILL NOT COME TO YOU. So let me ask you a simple question:

Had Jesus gone away yet when He breathed on the disciples? And the answer is NO.

Then why did he say, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"?? This may seem confusing if you are from a Pentecostal type persuasion and you are used to the healing line where the preacher says, "Receive..." over you. But this is really a command.

I think this Scripture should also be understood as part of the same commands given in Luke 24:29 and Acts 1:4: tarry and be endued with power from on high. "Receive ye the Holy Ghost."

RT

 2005/6/15 19:19Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2722
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
This statement contradicts Scripture. John 20:22 was the text I used to use for the indwelling at the time of initial faith proceeded by a later baptism in the H.S...I think this Scripture should also be understood as part of the same commands given in Luke 24:29 and Acts 1:4: tarry and be endued with power from on high. "Receive ye the Holy Ghost."



While it may appear to be a contradiction, there is a possible reconciliation that provides a much stronger interpretation than the one you have offered (in my humble opinion).

Please take the time to carefully read the following excerpt from [i]The Significance of Christ[/i] by T. Austin-Sparks;


A PRE-ASCENSION ASCENSION
The passage we read in John 20 - the words to Mary - is a remarkable one. "Touch me not" - that is, lay not hold of Me - "for I am not yet ascended unto the Father." There has been much speculation as to this pre-ascension ascension. The fact that this very woman was allowed to take hold of Him later (Matt. 28:9) gives much point and strength, with other things, to there having taken place an ascension.

INSTALLED AND ACCREDITED AS THE PROTOTYPE OF THE NEW CREATION
This ascending to the Father was also the installing and the accrediting of Him as the Prototype and Beginning of the new creation. Remember that His resurrection and ascension always go together - they are not two separate things. Paul puts them together in his letter to the Ephesians: "he raised him from the dead, and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenlies" (Eph. 1:20). There is no space between: He is raised and exalted in one act. That is how it is here in John 20: He will return for forty days, and then the ascension, as it is called by us, will take place - the great ascension. This resurrection-ascension was His accrediting - "declared to be the Son of God with power... by the resurrection from the dead" - and His installing as the Prototype and Beginning of the new creation. In His resurrection-ascension, He not only presents Himself to the Father's pleasure and is accepted to the satisfaction of God; He not only includes all who believe in Him afterward in that presentation; but He there and then becomes the Image, the Model, the Pattern, of the whole of that creation - that new creation which is coming in through faith in Him.

Jesus Christ is Man still. The New Testament Church believed that He did not let go His humanity when He went to heaven. Stephen saw the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God (Acts 7:56). The Apostle writes: "There is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5), and He is still mediating as Man. The whole system of Christianity hangs upon this very thing, that there is now a Man glorified to answer to God's original thought and intention. So He is now installed as God's model and pattern for the whole creation.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2005/6/15 19:46Profile









 Re:

Philogos said:
“If, then, ye, being evil, have known good gifts to be giving to your children, how much more shall the Father who is from heaven give the Holy Spirit to those asking Him!’”
(Luke 11:13, YNG)
This reference is not a 'your heavenly Father' but to 'a heavenly Father'. It is contrasting an earthly father with a heavenly one. You may recall that this discourse seems to have to have been delivered to the 12 disciples which included 'Judas Iscariot'. Do you want to make Judas a 'child of his heavenly Father'?
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever's response:

My Intelinear Greek-English New Testament, 3rd edition by Jay P. Green that relies on the Textus Recetus only, provides this literal (word for word translation) for Luke 11:10-13:

10. For everyone asking receives, and the (one) seeking finds, and to the (one) knocking, it will be opened. 11. And what father of you (if) the son asks (for) a loaf, will he give him a stone? And if a fish, will he give him a snake instead of a fish? 12. And if he whould ask an egg, will he give him a scorpion? 13. Then if you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more the Father our of Heaven will give (the) Holy Spirit to those asking Him."

I will give a word for word translation of the Textus Receptus (the Recieved Text) for 5:13 as follows:

"13. If then you evil being know good gifts to give to the children of you, how much more the Father of Heaven will give (the) Spirit Holy to the (ones) asking Him."

Please note, in the received text it refers to THE FATHER OF HEAVEN, not your reference quoted above "'a heavenly Father'"

Philogos, When you concluded with "This reference is not a 'your heavenly Father' but to 'a heavenly Father'. It is contrasting an earthly father with a heavenly one."

Your summation above is incorrect, and actually misleading.

Stever's conclusion:

The truth is that the text in Luke 11:13 was specially referring to THE FATHER OF HEAVEN. There is only one Father of Heaven--GOD.



God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/15 22:50









 Re:

Stever says:

I have always understood that He (Jesus) had to ascend to the Father in Heaven first, and place one drop of His own blood on the Mercy Seat in the Holy of Holies to finish the requirement for the final payment for all sin. Until that event took place sin was not completely dealt with, was not completely "finished", eas not completely paid for.

Remember all of the millions of sacrificed animals that had shed their blood, first at the Tabernacle,and then at the Temple? Only once a year at the day of Atonement was the high Priest allowed to go into the Holy of Holies and place Blood upon the Mercy Seat (which represents Christ Jesus)as payment for the sins of all the people--THAT WAS JUST A PICTURE OF THE FINAL SACRIFICE OFFERED BY JESUS BY GIVING HIMSELF ONE TIME, ONCE AND FOR ALL.

Check out Lev. 16:3-10; 23:26-32; and Num. 29:7-11.

Christ had to fulfill this, the final real sacrifice, once and for all:

Leviticus, Chapter 16:

1. And the Lord spake unto Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron, when they offered before the Lord, and died;
2. And the Lord said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.
3. Thus shall Aaron come into the holy place: with a young bullock for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering.
4. He shall put on the holy linen coat, and he shall have the linen breeches upon his flesh, and shall be girded with a linen girdle, and with the linen mitre shall he be attired: these are holy garments; therefore shall he wash his flesh in water, and so put them on.
5. And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering.
6. And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house.
7. And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
8. And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
9. And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
10. But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
11. And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself:
12. And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the Lord, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail:
13. And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:
14. And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.
15. Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
16. And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
17. And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.
18. And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the Lord, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.
19. And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
20. And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
21. And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
22. And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
23. And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there:
24. And he shall wash his flesh with water in the holy place, and put on his garments, and come forth, and offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and make an atonement for himself, and for the people.
25. And the fat of the sin offering shall he burn upon the altar.
26. And he that let go the goat for the scapegoat shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp.
27. And the bullock for the sin offering, and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall one carry forth without the camp; and they shall burn in the fire their skins, and their flesh, and their dung.
28. And he that burneth them shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp.
29. And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:
30. For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord.
31. It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.
32. And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:
33. And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation.
34. And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the Lord commanded Moses.


ALSO, JESUS IS COMING BACK, AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION ON THE 10TH DAY OF TISHRE, THE DAY OF ATONEMENT!!!!!!!

God bless,


Stever
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Quote:

InTheLight wrote:
Quote:
This statement contradicts Scripture. John 20:22 was the text I used to use for the indwelling at the time of initial faith proceeded by a later baptism in the H.S...I think this Scripture should also be understood as part of the same commands given in Luke 24:29 and Acts 1:4: tarry and be endued with power from on high. "Receive ye the Holy Ghost."



While it may appear to be a contradiction, there is a possible reconciliation that provides a much stronger interpretation than the one you have offered (in my humble opinion).

Please take the time to carefully read the following excerpt from [i]The Significance of Christ[/i] by T. Austin-Sparks;


A PRE-ASCENSION ASCENSION
The passage we read in John 20 - the words to Mary - is a remarkable one. "Touch me not" - that is, lay not hold of Me - "for I am not yet ascended unto the Father." There has been much speculation as to this pre-ascension ascension. The fact that this very woman was allowed to take hold of Him later (Matt. 28:9) gives much point and strength, with other things, to there having taken place an ascension.

INSTALLED AND ACCREDITED AS THE PROTOTYPE OF THE NEW CREATION
This ascending to the Father was also the installing and the accrediting of Him as the Prototype and Beginning of the new creation. Remember that His resurrection and ascension always go together - they are not two separate things. Paul puts them together in his letter to the Ephesians: "he raised him from the dead, and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenlies" (Eph. 1:20). There is no space between: He is raised and exalted in one act. That is how it is here in John 20: He will return for forty days, and then the ascension, as it is called by us, will take place - the great ascension. This resurrection-ascension was His accrediting - "declared to be the Son of God with power... by the resurrection from the dead" - and His installing as the Prototype and Beginning of the new creation. In His resurrection-ascension, He not only presents Himself to the Father's pleasure and is accepted to the satisfaction of God; He not only includes all who believe in Him afterward in that presentation; but He there and then becomes the Image, the Model, the Pattern, of the whole of that creation - that new creation which is coming in through faith in Him.

Jesus Christ is Man still. The New Testament Church believed that He did not let go His humanity when He went to heaven. Stephen saw the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God (Acts 7:56). The Apostle writes: "There is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5), and He is still mediating as Man. The whole system of Christianity hangs upon this very thing, that there is now a Man glorified to answer to God's original thought and intention. So He is now installed as God's model and pattern for the whole creation.

In Christ,

Ron

 2005/6/16 0:01
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2722
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
It seems that Christ's promise to the woman of Samaria was not fulfilled until they received 'the gift of God' in the giving of the Holy Spirit.



That's an interesting thought you have there but I think it's more likely that the gift being referred to in John 4 is Jesus Himself, as Jesus had just said of Himself in John 3:16, God [i]gave[/i] His only begotten Son. Jesus is the ultimate gift, the greatest gift of God's love we can ever know. The phrase following "gift of God" in John 4:10 would tend to support this, "[i]and who it is that saith to thee, give me to drink[/i]" In other words He's saying, "if you knew who I am".

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2005/6/16 0:24Profile









 Re:

RT'S POST:
Absolutely, I was saved when I received Jesus Christ as my Savior, the same pattern that the Disciples were part of. First, Christ blew on them, imparting the Holy Spirit into each believer/Disciple.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This statement contradicts Scripture. John 20:22 was the text I used to use for the indwelling at the time of initial faith proceeded by a later baptism in the H.S.

----------------

Stever's response: This gets to be nothing more than he said-she said. The main point is that we have to ASK the Father for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. ALSO, TYPICALLY HANDS ARE LAYED UPON THE ONE DOING THE ASKING FROM OTHER SPIRIT FILLED (BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT) BELIEVERS. This is a spiritual, supernatual baptism that has nothing to do with water baptism. It usually occurs after belief in Jesus Christ, unless you are fortunate like Cornelius was.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/16 0:26





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy