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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What place does baptism have in Biblical salvation?

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Can we do this? I am not pleading for frivolous, easy baptism, but to effectively guarantee someone's regeneration before water-baptism... can we do that?



I don't think we have been asked to do it biblically. Who can say who is God's elect? My point being that even Demas (depending on how you view the passage) 'forsook' Paul having loved this present word. He was in the camp with Paul who essentially rejected John Mark and then later in Colossians and II Timothy was finding him profitable for the ministry. When the smoke cleared Demas forsook Paul and Paul was sending John Mark into other areas of ministry. Sometimes it seems that God will veil the fulness of the revelation of things to even His prophets so that His purposes can be carried out. I can't see that God would even provide the level of discernment to do this.

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/6/14 14:54Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2722
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
I am having difficulty believing you really mean this



I really mean this. Here is the meaning I am applying, from Webster's; "To suppose as previous; to imply as antecedent."

Quote:
Can we do this? I am not pleading for frivolous, easy baptism, but to effectively guarantee someone's regeneration before water-baptism... can we do that?



Not unless you're God. But, do we baptize just anyone off the street? We baptize upon the confession of faith, It is believe, "with all your heart" as Philip told the eunuch, and be baptized, not the other way around.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2005/6/14 15:07Profile









 Re:

philologos,

Quote:
In what sense? There is no specific reference to the Spirit's work in the eunuch, but as always 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'.



Thanks. All this time I've been assuming the eunuch had received the Holy Spirit because of his rejoicing. I now see this was after he was baptised in water... and was not mentioned before. Also, I'm assuming he was not rejoicing because Philip had been caught away by the Spirit.

 2005/6/14 15:11
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I really mean this. Here is the meaning I am applying, from Webster's; "To suppose as previous; to imply as antecedent."

OK let's start again. The earliest reference we have is Acts 2 where we see
1. conviction, pricked in their hearts
2. the command to repent
genuine repentance always includes 'belief' so there is an implication here that they had 'believed'
3. the command to be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ with remission of sins in view.
4. the promise of the Spirit is given to be received, apparently, after water baptism.

At what point here do you see your Ezekiel 36 'faith' being manifested?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/14 17:38Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2722
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
At what point here do you see your Ezekiel 36 'faith' being manifested?



I believe that the grace of the Holy Ghost, as regenerator, is given at point 2.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2005/6/14 18:54Profile
ReceivedText
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Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re:

Quote:
I believe that the grace of the Holy Ghost, as regenerator, is given at point 2.



So even though you read in Acts 8 that the Samaritans didn't receive the Holy Ghost at point 2 or 3, you still persist in confessing something different? Where in Scripture do you place step 4 as a "filling" or "baptism" AFTER regeneration???

Chapter and verse please. (Preferably from the book of Acts)

RT

 2005/6/15 2:38Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

InTheLight writes:

Quote:
I believe that the grace of the Holy Ghost, as regenerator, is given at point 2.


Hi Ron
Would you follow the Reformed understanding that regeneration precedes everything, and that conviction, faith and repentance are all the consequences of God's prior act of regeneration? Or would you see regeneration as a 'response to a response'? ie God speaks, man responds and God responds to that word.

I will wait to see your response to RT too.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/15 4:02Profile









 Re:

I have listened very intently to all that has transpired on this thread. As you probably know, I have personally experienced the BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS, MANY YEARS AFTER BEING SAVED. IS THIS SCRIPTURAL?

I have prepared a little Bible study here, that spells it out for me and gives me understanding of what happended to me, in comparison to what occured in the lives of the early Church believers in regards to the Baptism IN the Holy Spirit:

The Baptism in the Holy Spirit versus Salvation

I. Question #1: Is every Christian, those who are "born-again", also baptized in the Holy Spirit, that is, is the baptism in the Holy Spirit automatically received with Salvation?

A. Read John 20:22
"And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and *said to them, "22. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"
The context of this passage is the time between the resurrection and the ascension of Jesus. Here Jesus breathes on His apostles, they RECEIVE the Holy Spirit (that is, they are "born-again", i.e. "saved"). However, the first time that the baptism in the Holy Spirit occurs is on Pentecost, which occurred after the ascension.
B. Read Luke 24:49
"And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed (endued) with POWER from on high."

During this same period between the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the ascension Jesus promises the apostles the baptism in the Holy Spirit and orders them to wait for it in the city of Jerusalem.

C. Read Acts 1:5
"for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with [in] the Holy Spirit not many many days from now."
Again the same promise and order not to leave the city of Jerusalem to the apostles by Jesus, before He was taken up into heaven.

D. Read Acts 2:4
"And they were ALL filled with the HOLY GHOST and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance."
This is the point where the apostles received the baptism IN the Holy Spirit. However as we have seen there existed a period of time between where they RECEIVED the Holy Spirit and were BAPTIZED IN the Holy Spirit. These were separate acts and each have a different reason. Salvation comes with receiving the Holy Spirit, that is we are saved from the penalty of sin. We become sons of God, that is we receive the authority to act as the sons of God. With the baptism in the Holy Spirit we receive the power to act as the sons of God (incidentally, there is a third level where we receive the direction to act as a son of God).

II. Question #2: Ok, I can see that the apostles were first saved and THEN baptized in the Holy Spirit later, but what about ordinary people like me?

A. Read Acts 8:5
"And Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming CHRIST to them."
B. Read Acts 8:8
"And there was much JOY in that city."
C. Read Acts 8:12
"But when they BELIEVED Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike."
They were preaching the message of Jesus and His offer of Salvation. They also accepted the message and signs which Philip brought, thus they were "born-again".
D. This is just what Jesus said in Mark 16:15 and 16 "And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
He who has BELIEF and has been BAPTIZED shall be SAVED; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."
At this point the people of Samaria are born-again, but nothing has been said, one way or the other, about BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.
E. Read Acts 8:14 through 17
"Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they SENT them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them, that they might RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST.

For He (THE HOLY GHOST) had not yet FALLEN UPON ANY of them; they had simply been baptized in the NAME of the Lord Jesus.
Then they began laying their hands on them , and they RECEIVED the Holy Spirit."
Thus, we see that the people of Samaria first were born-again, then baptized in the Holy Spirit later; this is just what we saw with the apostles themselves.

III. Question #3: Are there other examples of people first being born-again,
A Read Acts 19:1 through 6
"And it came about that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper country came to Ephesus, and found some disciples,
and he said to them, 'Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you BELIEVED ?' And they said to him, 'No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit'.
And he said, 'Into what then were you baptized? And they said, 'Into John's baptism',
And Paul said, 'John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling people to believe in Him who was coming after Him, that is Jesus.'
And when they heard this, they were baptized in the NAME of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul LAID HIS HANDS UPON THEM, the HOLY SPIRIT came on them , and they began speaking with tongues and they were prophesying.
The people had believed the message preached by John about Jesus, they were believers, THEY WERE "SAVED" OR "BORN AGAIN". However they were never taught to be water baptized as the completion of righteousness (enter the death and resurrection as a symbolic act)-they were baptized only for repentence. Also, they were NOT BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT. When Paul told them of these things, first they were water baptized in the NAME of Jesus and second he LAID HANDS on them and they were baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Thus, these examples from God's Word explain my personal understanding and experience of what really happens to the average believer. The BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST is an entirely separate event that takes place by the LAYING ON OF HANDS. Each of us can see from the above that we do receive the Holy Spirit at the new birth, when we are saved, but CAN STILL NOT BE BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.

IV. Question #4: Does this mean that some large period of time must pass between the new birth and the baptism in the Holy Spirit?

A. Read Acts 10:44 through 48

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the Word (Gospel).
And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 'Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?'
And he ordered them to be baptized in the NAME of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for a few days.
These people were Gentiles who were not raised knowing God, they were God fearing people, they were good people. They asked Peter to come deliver the message of salvation because God told them to do so in a vision. These people were not Christians, that is, they were not "saved" or "born-again". Peter delivered the salvation message as stated in verses 34 to 43, in verse 43 he specifically defined the requirement to be "saved", "Of Him all prophets bear witness that through HIS NAME everyone who BELIEVES in Him receives forgiveness of sins". After this they were all baptized in the Holy Spirit. Here the group is preached to, they believed and thus were "born-again". Immediately after the new birth they were baptized in the Holy Spirit, even before the water baptism. This is the only case in the New Testament where this is seen, the normal case is first salvation, then later the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

V. Question #5: Is there a Scripture which lists these sequence of steps toward the baptism in the Holy Spirit?

A. Read Ephesian 1:13
"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE,"
The steps to the baptism in the Holy Spirit are 1) listen to the message of truth (the gospel), 2) believe the message (become saved), and 3) then be baptized in the Holy Spirit.

VI. Question #6: How does God decide who to baptize in the Holy Spirit?
A. Read Luke 11:13
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ASK Him?"

First off, God is not the Father of the evil people, Satan is their father! Secondly, if God is your Father you are His child. If you are a child or a son of God then you are born again, i.e. saved. Read John 7:38 and 39, "'He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' But this He spoke of the spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive, for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." Thus, first we must be a child of God, then last and most important we must ask for the gift of the BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT..

Thus, God does not make the decision as to who He baptizes, we must as children of God REQUEST the baptism from our heart.


God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/15 7:31
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
First off, God is not the Father of the evil people, Satan is their father! Secondly, if God is your Father you are His child. If you are a child or a son of God then you are born again, i.e. saved.



Well boys, I think we just hit a snag. Stever is right here, the Holy Spirit is given as a gift to God's children according to the words of our Lord. And if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none His. I had not heard this argument before, but it seems to be pretty water tight as a simple matter of logic.

[i]"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall [u]your heavenly Father[/u] give the Holy Spirit to those who ASK Him?[/i]

If one must have the baptism in the Holy Spirit to be a child of God then this passage is a complete contradiction.



God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/6/15 8:21Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2722
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
So even though you read in Acts 8 that the Samaritans didn't receive the Holy Ghost at point 2 or 3, you still persist in confessing something different? Where in Scripture do you place step 4 as a "filling" or "baptism" AFTER regeneration???



As I have already stated, I believe that what occured in Acts 8 by the laying on of hands was something 'additional' as evidenced by the fact that it came with external manifestations that Simon "saw", probably tongues or miracles.

I have already quoted several scriptures that point to the fact that we are born into the body of Christ by the grace of inward renewing of the Holy Ghost. Are you saying that the believers in Samaria were not born into the body of Christ until the Apostles layed hands on them? Were they born of the will of the flesh and the will of man, or of God?

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2005/6/15 9:23Profile





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