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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What place does baptism have in Biblical salvation?

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
... and ye shall receive [b][u]the gift[/u][/b] of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”



When scripture speaks of "the gift" in this passage as "a promise" and even as "the earnest of our inheritance" (Eph 1) are we to think of this 'gift' or 'promise' or 'earnest' as a [i]special operation[/i] of the Holy Spirit or are we to think of the 'promise', 'gift' or 'earnest' as the Holy Spirit Himself?

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/6/14 8:58Profile









 Re:

Quote:
And you can't deny what you experienced. You KNOW you have Him.



RT, I'm real glad to hear you say this. :-)

Quote:
in every instance, but that of Cornelius, water-baptism occured before Spirit baptism



philologos, I'm wondering about the eunuch in Acts 8?

 2005/6/14 9:06
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
philologos, I'm wondering about the eunuch in Acts 8?


In what sense? There is no specific reference to the Spirit's work in the eunuch, but as always 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/14 9:26Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

RT
while I have a lot in common with your views here I think this statement is somewhat overstating the issue.

Quote:
There is ONE baptism in the Holy Ghost. Your Bible says that it is THAT baptism that puts us into the body of Christ. To say that a person receives the Holy Ghost and then receives the Holy Ghost again doesn't make sense. And you can't use this Scripture to say they merely were "filled" with the Spirit because it plainly and redundantly says that they "received" Him.

What 'my' Bible actually says is “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” (1Cor. 12:13, KJVS)
“for also in one Spirit we all to one body were baptized, whether Jews or Greeks, whether servants or freemen, and all into one Spirit were made to drink,” (1Cor. 12:13, YNG) Here Young's Literal Translation states that the 'purpose' or 'direction' of that 'Baptism in(by) One Spirit' is 'One Body'. This particular construction does not necessarily mean that it has been thoroughly achieved. The same construction is found in John Baptist's words “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:” (Matt. 3:11, KJVS) I don't think you would want to say that John's water baptism inevitably brought people 'into repentance', but it was most certainly its 'purpose/direction'.

However I do believe you are right in saying that this is the only agency by which we can be brought into One Body. The problem we face in discussing this is that 'evidence' of the Baptism in the Spirit is always lurking at the edges of our conversation. For some readers the very phrase 'Baptism in the Spirit' will mean a 'Pentecostal/Charismatic' type of experience.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/14 9:42Profile









 Re:

Stever,

In combination with the questions asked by Robert in his last post, I'd like to connect four pieces of scripture.

I cannot defend my interpretation with a study of Hebrew and Greek like some of the others who are posting here but I'm suggesting that some things have not been said out loud, as it were, even if they have been implied on all sides by our reading and experience. It is very easy to impute to others, both one's own understanding and one's lack of understanding. Here, I may be demonstrating the latter, inadvertently, but, I'm open to learn to think more clearly, so here goes.

When crsschk said philologos 'has been a pastor...', did you notice he used a small 'p', not a capital? Did you assume it was a mistake for 'Pastor'? But I suggest, he could have [i]intended[/i] to use a small 'p'.

Ephesians 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, [b]pastors[/b] and teachers;

These [b][i]persons[/i][/b] are for the edification of 'the church' which Peter chooses to define through the 'temple' analogy:

1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, [b]an holy priesthood[/b], to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Then, there are two verses in 1 John 2 which go further in defining the effect of baptism (immersion) in the Holy Spirit.

v 20 and 27 But [b]the anointing[/b] which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Lastly, this from Exodus 40, to place it in the context of the other three writers.

9 And thou shalt take the anointing oil, and anoint the tabernacle, and all that [is] therein, and shalt hallow it, and all the vessels thereof: and it shall be holy. 10 And thou shalt anoint the altar of the burnt offering, and all his vessels, and sanctify the altar: and it shall be an altar most holy. 11 And thou shalt anoint the laver and his foot, and sanctify it. 12 And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water. 13 And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest's office. 14 And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats: 15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

Going from 'immersion' to 'anointing' may cause some difficulty, I guess. If it does, I hope the correct way to understand these connections will be expounded by those who can.

 2005/6/14 10:05









 Re:

I don't recall being asked not to address you as Pastor Ron. If that is your wish, then so be it. I will just address you as Ron.

I still would like clarification, just an answer from you, that for some reason yo WILL NOT PROVIDE.

My question stands, Ron, Do you support the leadership of women in the Body of Christ, in the Church? Do you support Women Pastors & Ministers that shepherd a congregation?

That is a simple question that requires a simple answer from you- either yes or no, with no maybes about it.

Why will you not answer it?

God bless,

Stever

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
What I do not understand is you inability to answer a direct question about women's leadership in the Church. Are you, sir, an ordained Minister? Yes or no?


1. by 'ordained' do you mean formally approved by a denomination and prayed over by their officers?
2. Why do you persist in the use of the phrase 'pastor Ron'? when you have been requested not to do so?

 2005/6/14 11:58
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Stever,

The issue is one that has been discussed on these forums much in the past. For starters we are dealing with several words (issues) that need to be defined and explored. What is a pastor? Who is in authority? How is authority delegated by God? Does man have the right to delegate authority biblically? Why did the King James translators opt for certain English words in translating the original tongues when other more clear words could have been used to describe 'offices'?

For example, most of the KJV (AV) is the works of William Tyndale. Yet, the KJV translators opted to use a different word for [i]poimen[/i] than Tyndale. Here we read:

[i]And the very same made some Apostles some prophetes some Evangelistes some [u]Sheperdes[/u] some Teachers:[/i] (Tyndale 1525 on Ephesians 4:11).

Only once does the KJV use the word 'pastor' to translate the Greek word that clearly means 'shepherd' (feeder of the sheep). This is a very significant move because it defines the greatest part of the "five-fold ministry". Why? It goes back to the issue of retaining authority. Words have histories. Who was the first shepherd in scripture? Was it not Abel? Why was he killed? Because his brothers works were evil and his was righteous. We have here the age old issue of Cain and Abel. It is a matter of authority and acceptance with God. Does God want a man to 'lord' over a people as a totalitarian dictator, establishing his version of religious expression; or does He want a person who will "feed the flock of God that is among them taking the oversight thereof"? Oversight here is [i]episkopeo[/i] and it means to "watch over". It deals with provision and protection- not lordship. The word is used in Hebrews:

[i][u]Looking diligently[/u] lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;[/i] (Hebrews 12:15).

This is a lot different than what happens in modern times. unfortunately the word has come to mean the "top dog" or the man to whom "the buck stops."

This comes about perhaps because of the rendering of Romans 12:8:

[i]Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that [u]ruleth[/u], with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness[/i]

Youngs translates the same passage:

[i]or he who is exhorting -- `In the exhortation!' he who is sharing -- `In simplicity!' he who is [u]leading[/u] -- `In diligence?' he who is doing kindness -- `In cheerfulness.'[/i]

This follows the flow and use of the term "shepherd". A shepherd 'leads' the flock. Leadership is something quite different in the Kingdom than in the secular world. Authority may be passed around with titles and such in the world- but the Kingdom is under God's authority and He distributes it severally as He wills. The Greek word here is [i]Hegeomai[/i] and it means "to lead". I would recommend a deep study of how leadership plays out in the Body of Christ. Remember how the Holy Spirit said "seperate unto me Barnabus and Saul"? This is ordination biblically.

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/6/14 13:46Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

stever asks...

Quote:
Do you support the leadership of women in the Body of Christ, in the Church? Do you support Women Pastors & Ministers that shepherd a congregation?

This, of course, is the first time you have asked the question in this form. As with many of your questions it muddles up things which must be kept separate for a proper understanding of scripture.

1. Do you support the leadership of women in the Body of Christ, in the Church?
'[u]the[/u] body' of Christ is the Universal Church. '[u]a[/u] body' of Christ is a local entity. 'the body' of Christ is under His personal headship and what He chooses to do is not within my right to judge. In that 'Universal Body' I note that He has often used women to 'lead'. You don't need me to list them; history bears its own testimony. My opinion is of no consequence in this; it is His right as head of 'the body of Christ' and whatever He chooses to do with 'the body' which is under His jurisdiction is fine with me.

2. Do you support Women Pastors & Ministers that shepherd a congregation?
I distinguish between leadership and authority, but I do not formally recognise the concept of 'a pastor or minister' who is responsible for 'shepherding' a congregation. I know you don't understand what I am saying here but you are asking me to describe 'apples' with questions like 'how many wings does it have?'.

Let me share my experience. In the congregation to which I belong we would never consider sisters in roles of overall "authority" for that congregation. However we discover 'leadership' gifts in our sisters in many contexts, not least the meetings. Our meetings are open and without structure. We have a company of elders who are answerable to God for the particular 'house of God' in which He has made them stewards. They 'watch over' the gatherings of the saints and give account to God for our condition as a congregation. Sometimes a sister will pray and the prayer will capture the meeting which will follow; she has just exercised 'leadership' but not 'authority'; the 'elders' will 'follow' her 'lead' if they discern the Spirit of God in her prayer. Sometimes a sister will bring a prophecy or an interpreted tongue which will direct the course of the meeting; again the elders will 'follow' her 'lead' as appropriate.

The responsibility for 'pastoring' the flock of which I am part does not rest with one person; I am not convinced that in the 1st century it ever did. The elders have joint responsibility for the oversight of the church. So the concept of 'a pastor' in a local congregation is not the way I ever consider things. Some others of our congregation have shepherd hearts and shepherd gifts; the elders encourage such to enrich the church with those gifts. Some of them are sisters. However these are not 'roles' or 'positions' they are simply instinctive functions in our local body. If God has put such giftings within our midst we would be churlish to refuse them.

Some years ago an English preacher/teacher wrote a very controversial book called "Leadership is Male'. I am in broad agreement with almost all that he wrote but I object to the title. I would have called it 'Authority is Male'.

I hope you can see now why it is not possible to answer your questions with simple 'yes' or 'no'. You and I have completely different working definitions of almost all the terms in your questions. I disagree with your presumptions contained within the question; how can I answer 'yes' or 'no'. On a lighter note let me show you what I mean; here is an old English joke...
"Do you still beat your wife?" "yes" or "no"?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/14 13:51Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2722
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Ron I know we have talked about this before but I do wonder whether 'water batism' presupposes the Holy Spirit. Do I understand you right? are you saying that Spirit baptism is 'biblically' a prerequisite of water baptism?



I believe that water baptism presupposes the "renewing" of the Holy Ghost. I believe that at the point of "believing" Ezekiel 36:25-27 is fulfilled, this is what I consider the "renewing".

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2005/6/14 13:54Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I believe that water baptism presupposes the "renewing" of the Holy Ghost. I believe that at the point of "believing" Ezekiel 36:25-27 is fulfilled, this is what I consider the "renewing".


Hi Ron
I am having difficulty believing you really mean this. I even went to my dictionary to confirm what 'presupposes' means. One of the defintions is 'to require as a prerequisite'. I actually used the word 'prerequisite' in my earlier post hoping to 'flush' you out into the open. ;-) Thinking, he will surely jump on me and say 'no, I mean it assumes that Spirit baptism will follow.' But you didn't!

I love Ezekiel 36 so I am more than happy to see it as regeneration. I see regeneration as God's response to 'believing' but then we really need to know what 'believing' means in this context. And what are we to make of the Samaritans? “But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.”
(Acts 8:12-13, KJVS)I also wonder how baptism could have been administered if this is the case. Does this not put the task of discerning the 'believing' of the candidates into the hands of the apostles? Did they discern that every candidate had 'believed' properly before they baptised them? and in our own day it would put the task of discerning genuine 'faith' into the hands of the baptisers. Can we do this? I am not pleading for frivolous, easy baptism, but to effectively guarantee someone's regeneration before water-baptism... can we do that?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/14 14:36Profile





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