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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What place does baptism have in Biblical salvation?

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InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2722
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
I think that this is where our problem lies. You seem to think that "accepting the Lord" as Lord and Saviour is when a person FIRST receives the Holy Ghost. But there are no Scriptural grounds for such a statement.

Go read of the Samarians in Acts 8. The Bible says they didn't receive the Holy Spirit UNTIL AFTER they both believed and were baptized. Now the Baptists and most pentecostals say that when a person believes, they get the spirit of God. I don't have ONE SINGLE verse I can think of that says this.



No scriptural grounds? Everywhere you look the conversion of sinners is traced to His influence.

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(John 1:13)

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;(Titus 3:5)

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

The laying on of hands in Acts 8 was clearly something additional to the "renewing of the Holy Ghost". It was spoken of as the "gift of God" in Acts 8:20 and must have referred to some kind of external effects because it was something that Simon "saw"(8:18). Probably tongues and/or miracles.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2005/6/12 23:46Profile









 Re:

To RT from Stever:

So your response is basically all of the Christians that do not have the power- the power to witness, to speak in tongues, etc. etc. etc. have not received the Holy Ghost? Almost every Church that I have ever atteneded does not even believe in the gifts! They believe that they were given to the Apostles and the early Church only, and they have never witnessed to a soul in their life. Their prayers are without faith and belief in God's power to move mountains.

I will never forget, after being Spirit Filled (Baptized in the Holy Ghost) the Church that we were attending (Baptist in origin) called a special prayer meeting for one of our Evangelists that had been in Central American for over 15 years. He was diagnosed with cancer of the pancrease and was not expected to live. He stood in the middle of the body, and prayer was offered for him. It was so sad to see. None of these people, including the Pastor had any faith in God's power to heal anything. The prayers seemingly never went past the ceiling--there was no faith. Everyone, including the Pastor just knew this man would die.

That is the last time I attended that Church. I now go to a Church that believes in the gifts, and is involved with Gods work- sidewalk witnessing on the pier in Huntington Beach, nightly Bible Study to equipt the believer, etc. etc. etc.

Now, with all of that being said, are those people I mentioned in the first Church above not saved in your eyes, RT? They definitely are saved. They do have the Holy Spirit in their lives that lives in their hearts. They have all been baptized in water. They have a very large place, directly behind the altar, just set up for water baptisms. The only thing they lack is what is described in Matthew 3:11; Mark 16:16-18, as well as Acts 1---The Baptism of the Holy Spirit---" 5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

I guess I am just putting words out here that have no meaning to you RT.

Does anyone have any understanding of what I am talking about here, or is it a mystery to everyone reading this? I remember some where on this thread that one brave soul said that he was baptised in the Holy Ghost (& it wasn't RT). What exactly was your experience compared to mine?

Any takers out there?

God bless,

Stever
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Quote:

ReceivedText wrote:
Quote:
My question to you RT- Did you have the experience of Cornelius, and get this power immediately? Or, were you baptized in water and then shortly after that receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost? Is that why you cannot relate to me?



I was baptized in water, then later had the experience you mentioned. But when I was baptized in water, I was so young I didn't have a good enough understanding of baptism. So to answer you is very hard. I was later baptized "into the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins" according to Acts 2:38 in water. My experience is one of a pilgrim. Seeking truth and being led of the Lord into it (or should I say into Him?). The Bible is my authority, the Holy Ghost is my guide.

Let me quote something you said:

Quote:
(over 37 years after I accepted the Lord as my LORD & SAVIOR & was water baptised)



I think that this is where our problem lies. You seem to think that "accepting the Lord" as Lord and Saviour is when a person FIRST receives the Holy Ghost. But there are no Scriptural grounds for such a statement.

Go read of the Samarians in Acts 8. The Bible says they didn't receive the Holy Spirit UNTIL AFTER they both believed and were baptized. Now the Baptists and most pentecostals say that when a person believes, they get the spirit of God. I don't have ONE SINGLE verse I can think of that says this.

Can you point me to one?

So yes you must be baptized in water. Yes most are baptized in the Spirit after this. This seems to be the seal of salvation itself, not merely an experience of power. It seems to be the FIRST time we receive the Holy Spirit. SCRIPTURALLY speaking of course. ;-)

RT

 2005/6/13 1:14
ReceivedText
Member



Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re:

Quote:
No scriptural grounds? Everywhere you look the conversion of sinners is traced to His influence.



I didn't say His influence was absent. I said that "accepting" Jesus doesn't seem to equal "receiving the Spirit" Biblically. None of the Scriptures you quoted said that. In fact, "accepting" Jesus doesn't exist in Scriptural salvation teaching.

You have repent, believe, etc. but no "accept." People don't get saved by "accepting" Jesus. They get saved when Jesus "accepts" them. And the evidence that He has "accepted us is that we have His Spirit. (1 Jn. 3:24; 4:13)

Quote:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(John 1:13)



When does being born of God ACTUALLY HAPPEN?? No "accept" Jesus here.

Quote:
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)



This Scripture tells us that the Baptism in the Spirit is what puts us into the body of Christ. Quite a different concept from the "second work" of grace (after salvation) idea. You are quoting some GREAT Scriptures here. Listen to them.

Quote:
The laying on of hands in Acts 8 was clearly something additional to the "renewing of the Holy Ghost". It was spoken of as the "gift of God" in Acts 8:20 and must have referred to some kind of external effects because it was something that Simon "saw"(8:18). Probably tongues and/or miracles.



What in the world do you think the "gift of God" is??? Recognize this Scripture?

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." [Romans 6:23]

Let's look at Acts 8 one more time:

Acts 8:12 "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women."
(v.14) "Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."

Now did you get that? They believed. They were baptized. But until the apostles came and layed hands the Holy Ghost "was fallen upon none of them." (v. 16) And verse 15 says that the apostled prayed that "they might [b]receive[/b] the Holy Ghost." So we see that they hadn't even received Him yet.

There is ONE baptism in the Holy Ghost. Your Bible says that it is THAT baptism that puts us into the body of Christ. To say that a person receives the Holy Ghost and then receives the Holy Ghost again doesn't make sense. And you can't use this Scripture to say they merely were "filled" with the Spirit because it plainly and redundantly says that they "received" Him.

I think it's time for you to do what this Pentecostal boy did: Change your theology to fit the Bible.

I still speak in tongues and love the gifts of the Spirit. But to provide for a second work of grace is indefensible if you are using Scripture to try to prove it. (Which I hope we all do)

Think about it.

RT

 2005/6/13 1:22Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Pastor Ron, do you agree with RT on this issue?

Would like your comments.


Why? you never listen to them. Why do you persist in referring to me as 'Pastor' when I have specifically asked you not to do so?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/13 5:16Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Philogos said:
You are not listening. Not only do I NOT agree with the ordination of women I don't agree with the ordination of men either. I accept one ordination which is available to 'all and only' those who are in Christ where there is neither male not female.




Quote:
Stever's question to Pastor Ron (AKA Philogos)

My question to you still stands, Philogos----
Since we are all "Priests" and Jesus is our High Priest, do you believe in the ordination of women as Pastors and Leaders in the Church (on this earth)?



What part of 'Not only do I NOT agree with the ordination of women I don't agree with the ordination of men either.' don't you understand?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/13 5:26Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi RT,

Quote:
You have repent, believe, etc. but no "accept."



I believe the proof text used for 'accepting' or more commonly called 'receiving Christ' is:

[i]But as many as [u]received him[/u], to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:[/i]

The question is- what does this receiving entail?

Quote:
This Scripture tells us that the Baptism in the Spirit is what puts us into the body of Christ. Quite a different concept from the "second work" of grace (after salvation) idea. You are quoting some GREAT Scriptures here. Listen to them.



I have to ask RT, are you UPC in your doctrine? If you assert that the baptism in the Spirit places us in the Body [i]AND[/i] that one must speak with tongues to have the initial evidence of the baptism in the Spirit (which is the AG, PCG, CGC position) your doctrine is essentially the same as Oneness Pentecostal. The equation is simple: tongues = salvation. I cannot accept this view.

Quote:
There is ONE baptism in the Holy Ghost. Your Bible says that it is THAT baptism that puts us into the body of Christ. To say that a person receives the Holy Ghost and then receives the Holy Ghost again doesn't make sense.



There are other ways at reconciling this without resorting to the UPC position.

God Bless,

-Robert






_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/6/13 12:13Profile









 Re:

Stever,

Isn't this which you wrote, the answer to your own question - 'we are all "Priests" and Jesus is our High Priest'?

 2005/6/13 13:01
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Robert asks:

Quote:
The question is- what does this receiving entail?

I think I started this somewhere and lost track of it.
The phrase 'receiving Him' as taken from John is in reference to 'his word' or testimony. The earlier verses of John's gospel have to do with witnesses. This language of the receiving of the truth or the witness is repeated in “And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.” (John 3:32-34, KJV)
The language of 'receiving Him' as taken from Paul in Colossians is a very important passage.“As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.” (Col. 2:6-7, KJV) This is a vital passage because we know Paul had not met these people and that his statements were thus based on the evidence provided by Epaphras. This means that, to a degree, we can gather together the information given by Epaphras which caused Paul to say these people had 'received Christ'. They make an interesting list...

1. Col 1:4. Paul had "heard of your faith in Christ Jesus". It is important to understand that this is not referring to 'facts about Christ'. In the preaching of Epaphras they had encountered the living Son of God and had put themselves into His hands. This is genuine faith; faith in the person of Jesus Christ. They had not been taken through 4 steps or a counselling procedure they had met Christ in the preaching and responded personally to Him.

2. Col 1:4. Paul had also heard "of the love which ye have to all the saints," and he expands this by saying plainly that Epaphras had "declared unto us your love in the Spirit". Col 1:8. This is nothing less that the 'love of God' shed abroad in their hearts by the Holy Spirit. It is referred to by John in his letter "we know that we have passed from death unto life because we love the brethren". “We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.”
(1John 3:14, KJV)

3. Col 1:5. Paul has also heard that they had heard "the word of the truth of the gospel" which came to them. This is linked to the first statement. Epaphras had brought the 'word of God' to them. This is not a reference to Bible verses but to the fact the these men and women had heard God's word. It was as though God had spoken and they responded correspondingly. New Testament preaching was not the stringing together of Bible verses but the means whereby Christ the Word was manifested. “O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?”
(Gal. 3:1, KJV) and this vivid 'setting forth of Christ crucified' was not the result of eloquence which Paul consciously rejected. (1 Cor 1:17, 2:1) It was 'the word' being manifested in the preaching. Titus 1:3

4. Col 1:6 From the beginning the 'word of God' had brought forth 'fruit' in the lives of these new believers. Fruit is the final proof the nature. They had received the word of God in the preaching, the life of God in the Spirit and the proof was clearly visible.

This is all the evidence Paul needs; these people had 'received Christ'. We should observe that there are no techniques employed. No 'altar calls' or 'counseling rooms'. They had encountered Christ personally and had surrendered to Him. As a consequence He had given them His Spirit. This is the New Testament definition of 'receiving Christ'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/13 13:31Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Bro. Ron wrote: They had [u]encountered Christ personally[/u] and had surrendered to Him. As a consequence He had given them His Spirit. This is the New Testament definition of 'receiving Christ'.



So we are back again to the passage:

[i]So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the 'word' (rhema) of God[/i]

In my studies of this word it seems to indicate an 'utterance' as opposed to a written word. It seems to be words proceeding from the mouth of God. If that is so- then I am now thinking of the word "oracle." If I add this all up then I must conclude that if our ministry be not the oracles of God then they will not produce faith. When I say oracles I am thinking of freshness or 'application'. I am thinking of the sword of the Spirit. Not the word of God turned into natural proof texts by the mind of mens reasonings and deductions: but the very oracle of God... the Word weilded by the Holy Ghost as the speaker is being carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Am I any where near to what you mean by Christ being evidently set forth among the people?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/6/13 14:05Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Am I any where near to what you mean by Christ being evidently set forth among the people?


Yes, the only thing I would add is to draw attention to this kind of phraseology which we find in the NT...
“Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds: That I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak.”(Col. 4:3-4, KJVS) Here the word translated 'utterance' is 'logos'. But Paul is asking for prayer that the 'logos' might be 'manifested'. I think this is the special focus of 'rhema'. (but in saying this I must distance myself from those who have built whole theologies on this!)

In that Titus reference we have “But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;” (Titus 1:3, KJVS) Here too the word 'word' is 'logos' which Paul sees as being 'manifested' in/by preaching. I fear that not all preaching manifests the logos. Much is the transfer of information; good accurate information but information nevertheless.

'oracle' is a good word. Paul calls the scriptures the 'oracles of God'; the place where God speaks.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/13 14:15Profile





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