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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What place does baptism have in Biblical salvation?

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 Re:

All believers are now "Priests". However, our High Priest is Jesus Christ. The model in the early Old Testament Church was a male Priesthood only, from the tribe of Levi. The model in the early Church for a Pastor was male as well (the husband of one wife).

At Mt Moriah, God provide a Ram for the sacrifice, instead of Isaac. At passover a Male Lamb, without blemish was slain. At the Cross, Christ Jesus (God, who took the body of a man, not a woman) died on a cross, bled to death, and resurrected from the dead. All of the Apostles were men.

The problem that I continue to have with Pastor Ron B. is that by his post he is equating the "Male Ordainded Priesthood" on equal footing as infant baptism, dancing, animal noises, & smoking. In other words, according to Ron, none of the other things that he equates Male Ordained Priesthood to have any Biblical relevance whatsover to us today.

Pastor Ron is in England. Right now the clergy is ordaining women as Pastors. I have responded recently to one woman Pastor in particular who is Anglican. She not only is a Pastor, but she also refers to God as her mother!

This blasphemy is taking place worldwide. That is my problem with his (Ron's) statement on this thread. It also troubles me that you cannot see it, RT!!

Do you agree with this practice that Pastor Ron is seeming to endors?. How about you, RT, do you agree with the ordination of women as well?

I have a problem with each of you if you agee with this unbiblical, feminist, politically correct practice.

God bless,

Stever

P.S. from previous posts with Ron, I expect him to deny that he believes in the ordination of women. But what have his words told us???

 2005/6/11 18:26
ReceivedText
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Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re: Evangelical Feminism

Steve,

You only have to go to our website and look under our church and family issues to see that I am not an egalitarian, nor an evangelical feminist (EF). I am a Bible-only preacher.

Christ is the head of man and man is the head of woman. There is no such thing as a woman bishop or deacon. (the two named offices in the local church)

I am not a Jezebel advocate. And I will take this opportunity to say that in order to have a Jezebel, you must also have an Ahab. I don't want to be an Ahab. I won't!!

EF's love to use the example of Deborah. But in order to have a Deborah, you have to have a nation full of cowardly Barak's. I don't want to be a Barak!

"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths."
[Isaiah 3:12]

The Scripture above is NOT meant to be a blessing upon those who have women rule over them. It is quite the opposite.

Women in the church of God should be daughters of Sarah, completely obedient to their own husbands as unto the Lord as the Scriptures say.

I am deeply troubled at the women teachers in the churches and even on TV today. Did they miss this Scripture:

"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."
[1 Timothy 2:12]

The NT is FILLED with support for God ordained Male leadership. But so many churches today have ignored this for the sake of pragmatism. And they have reaped a powerless church and ruined homes. Where are all the men of God today??? Are they ALL Barak's??? Are they ALL Ahab's??? God help us.

RT

 2005/6/11 19:17Profile









 Re:

RT said:
While this is true in the sense that the Holy Spirit comes upon us, and in us, to plant the seed of life in Christ, it is not true that we are completely filled with His Spirit unless we ask for it. "...How much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:13).

This Scripture doesn't prove your point. It simply says that in order for the Holy Spirit to be "given" ("given" implies "for the first time" - you don't need to ask for what you already have), you may ask and God will give.

Where is your Scriptural support? I'm really trying hard to see your points here, but it is pretty weak.

I suggest you taking your preserved KJV and reading it again, but this time try reading it like it were the first time you had ever read it. (Of course adding proper logical hermeneutic to your reading)

Just a suggestion.
----------------------------
------------------------------------------
Stever's response:



"Matthew 3:11. I baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

All that I can say is that this conflict has been going on within the body of Christ since the beginning. Some are Baptized in the Holy Spirit, and others are not. As believers in Christ, we are all saved. The difference is the walk and power that is given to the person baptized in the Holy Ghost.

I was a Christian believer with a personal relationship with Jesus Christ for a long period of time until a Brother in the Lord (who had been Baptized into the Holy Ghost over 20 years before this night, and "Spirit Filled") laid hands on me and led me into the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. My life has changed. My wife received the baptism on the same night, on 6/4/1999 and her life has changed as well. We are both empowered to witness to the lost-to people we don't know, to ones that we do, all at the leading of the Holy Spirit. Before being Spirit Filled I "stepped out in faith" quite often, only to retreat if it didn't pan out. Today, I wait for the word from God, and then I step out in faith. Since being Spirit filled we have never had to step back and retreat, because we wait for the word from the Lord and then step out in the faith that HE can do anything. It has nothing to do with our faith. Our faith is focused on HIM and HIS power to do anything.

This is not bragging, or anything like that. I am just trying to explain to you in the best way that I can that there has been a tremendous differnce in our lives since this one time event.

I do not expect you to agree with what I have to say. If you ever receive this baptism, then we will have something to talk about. Right now, since you haven't, it seems that we just have to agree to disagree, like Christian brothers have been doing since the beginning.



God bless,


Stever

 2005/6/11 21:45
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Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re: Flabbergasted

Quote:
I do not expect you to agree with what I have to say. If you ever receive this baptism, then we will have something to talk about. Right now, since you haven't, it seems that we just have to agree to disagree, like Christian brothers have been doing since the beginning.



Now you have crossed the line. You seem to take great ease in making broad assumptions about people.

FYI, I have received the baptism. I DO speak in tounges ALL THE TIME!!! What on the face of God's green earth are you talking about???? I used to hold your theology of two separate definite works of the Spirit. While we are to be continually filled with the Spirit, when He comes, HE COMES!!!

This really betrays that you prove your theology through experience first instead of the word first.

You flabbergast me, sir.

RT

 2005/6/12 1:41Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Do you agree with this practice that Pastor Ron is seeming to endors?. How about you, RT, do you agree with the ordination of women as well?


You are not listening. Not only do I NOT agree with the ordination of women I don't agree with the ordination of men either. I accept one ordination which is available to 'all and only' those who are in Christ where there is neither male not female.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/12 4:14Profile
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Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re: Ordained unto life

Quote:
You are not listening. Not only do I NOT agree with the ordination of women I don't agree with the ordination of men either. I accept one ordination which is available to 'all and only' those who are in Christ where there is neither male not female.



Amen, bro. Ron! Ordination as it relates to salvation has nothing to do with ministry. It has everything to do with eternal life and salvation.

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." [Acts 13:48]

But most of the uses of the word "ordained" in scripture have to do with ministry. And this is reserved for men only. Christ "ordained" twelve men:

"And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach," [Mark 3:14]

The apostles "ordained" elders as the male leadership of the local body in the early church:

"And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed." [Acts 14:23]

RT

 2005/6/12 4:46Profile









 Re:

RT said: "Amen, bro. Ron! Ordination as it relates to salvation has nothing to do with ministry. It has everything to do with eternal life and salvation.

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." [Acts 13:48]

But most of the uses of the word "ordained" in scripture have to do with ministry. And this is reserved for men only. Christ "ordained" twelve men:

"And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach," [Mark 3:14]

The apostles "ordained" elders as the male leadership of the local body in the early church:

"And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed." [Acts 14:23]"
---------------------
Stever's response:

Pastor Ron, do you agree with RT on this issue?

Would like your comments.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/12 10:48









 Re:

Dear RT:

Exasperated as well!

My Bible tells me that I will receive POWER once I receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. What kind of power? The power to:
7. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

When I first became a Christian, I was baptized in water. Then, many years later I was baptized again. Why did I do that? Because I did not have the desire to witness to the lost, because I felt that my prayers never went higher than the ceiling many times. I surely could never lay my hands on anyone and pray for them and expect them to be healed by God. I felt that maybe I needed to be baptized again, and then God would give me the power that I read and studied about in His Word. It never happened.


I read all about Cornelius, who was baptized into the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, just like the Disciples were, only he received this baptism before being water baptized. Did God perform that miracle to show us that there is no specific program, no specific order that we can count on to receive this type of Baptism (Baptism of the Holy Spirit)? I had always thought that baptism in water and Baptism in the Holy Ghost were one and the same thing, but I never had the power that God's Word tells us that we receive when we receive this Baptism.

Now, if I had been Cornelius, having received the Spirit Baptism before being water baptized, then I would think that someone that was having problems with power, etc. was not even saved. He received the power before being water baptized, and I had never received the power after two water baptisms.

What I have been trying to communicate on this thread is that UNTIL I WAS LED INTO THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (over 37 years after I accepted the Lord as my LORD & SAVIOR & was water baptised) I DID NOT HAVE THE POWER TO: WITNESS, PRAY WITH AUTHORITY & CONFIDENCE, LAY HANDS ON THE SICK AND PRAY FOR THEM AND EXPECT THEM TO RECOVER.

AFTER BEING BAPTIZED INTO THE HOLY SPIRIT, THE POWER HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME TO BE ABOUT GOD'S BUSINESS. TO WITNESS, TO PRAY WITH AUTHORITY & CONFIDENCE (AND WAIT ON THE LORD FOR HIS ANSWER), TO LAY HANDS ON THE SICK, PRAY FOR THEM AND EXPECT THEM TO RECOVER.

My question to you RT- Did you have the experience of Cornelius, and get this power immediately? Or, were you baptized in water and then shortly after that receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost? Is that why you cannot relate to me?

Let me know, I would like to hear from you.

God bless,

Stever


 2005/6/12 18:34









 Re:

Stever said to Pastor Ron aka Philogos:
"Do you agree with this practice that Pastor Ron is seeming to endorse?. How about you, RT, do you agree with the ordination of women as well?"



Philogos said:
You are not listening. Not only do I NOT agree with the ordination of women I don't agree with the ordination of men either. I accept one ordination which is available to 'all and only' those who are in Christ where there is neither male not female.


RT responded:
Amen, bro. Ron! Ordination as it relates to SALVATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MINISTRY. It has everything to do with eternal life and salvation.

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." [Acts 13:48]

But most of the uses of the word "ordained" in scripture have to do with ministry. And this is reserved for men only. Christ "ordained" twelve men:

"And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach," [Mark 3:14]

The apostles "ordained" elders as the male leadership of the local body in the early church:

"And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed." [Acts 14:23]
-----------
Stever's question to Pastor Ron (AKA Philogos)

My question to you still stands, Philogos----
Since we are all "Priests" and Jesus is our High Priest, do you believe in the ordination of women as Pastors and Leaders in the Church (on this earth)?


Would like to know.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/12 20:55
ReceivedText
Member



Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re:

Quote:
My question to you RT- Did you have the experience of Cornelius, and get this power immediately? Or, were you baptized in water and then shortly after that receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost? Is that why you cannot relate to me?



I was baptized in water, then later had the experience you mentioned. But when I was baptized in water, I was so young I didn't have a good enough understanding of baptism. So to answer you is very hard. I was later baptized "into the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins" according to Acts 2:38 in water. My experience is one of a pilgrim. Seeking truth and being led of the Lord into it (or should I say into Him?). The Bible is my authority, the Holy Ghost is my guide.

Let me quote something you said:

Quote:
(over 37 years after I accepted the Lord as my LORD & SAVIOR & was water baptised)



I think that this is where our problem lies. You seem to think that "accepting the Lord" as Lord and Saviour is when a person FIRST receives the Holy Ghost. But there are no Scriptural grounds for such a statement.

Go read of the Samarians in Acts 8. The Bible says they didn't receive the Holy Spirit UNTIL AFTER they both believed and were baptized. Now the Baptists and most pentecostals say that when a person believes, they get the spirit of God. I don't have ONE SINGLE verse I can think of that says this.

Can you point me to one?

So yes you must be baptized in water. Yes most are baptized in the Spirit after this. This seems to be the seal of salvation itself, not merely an experience of power. It seems to be the FIRST time we receive the Holy Spirit. SCRIPTURALLY speaking of course. ;-)

RT

 2005/6/12 22:48Profile





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