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PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
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 Re:

Oh ok.. Thank you Ron. I see what you are saying. It seems many people see it as an office just as a government offical that is elected. As we all know this is not the way it should be. The Holy Ghost should be the only one voting in that election...


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Josh Parsley

 2005/5/4 10:29Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
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 Re: Musing at it all

Some really good stuff here, Lahry, Ron, MC...

Been riding the coat tails as this progress's and not much to add.(Yeah, right). Somewhere along the line was the idea of cramming the Old Testament prophet into a New Testament molding. But at bottom, the fortune-tellers, the 'offices' and 'ranks' and seeking after such things... or even the compulsion that one may be such... Bluntly, something seems amiss to hear these things stated as "[i]I am a ...[/i]", probably redundant but to hear it put by the likes of Tozer and to hear it put as "How come nobody is listening to me?" Seems to have an air of more importance with the 'bearer' than the 'message' often times. In more frank words, IF you are one, seems somebody else would say so, why the penchant to 'proclaim it'? Or to put it even differently than that, my own sense would be of "Wait till I am a good and dead, before you start putting that label on me". Do we really want to be 'know' 'as' something this seriously damaging? What the requirements are, the demands and shear fright that one would think comes bearing out to take seriously something of just this example;

Jer 23:21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
Jer 23:22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.
Jer 23:23 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?
Jer 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
Jer 23:25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
Jer 23:26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
Jer 23:27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
Jer 23:28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.
Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
Jer 23:30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
Jer 23:31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
Jer 23:32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
Jer 23:33 And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the LORD? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the LORD.
Jer 23:34 And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house.
Jer 23:35 Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the LORD answered? and, What hath the LORD spoken?
Jer 23:36 And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God.
Jer 23:37 Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the LORD answered thee? and, What hath the LORD spoken?
Jer 23:38 But since ye say, The burden of the LORD; therefore thus saith the LORD; Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the LORD;
Jer 23:39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:
Jer 23:40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

None of this meant to be an indictment here, nor to no one in particular. The difference in 'what seems to be so' as it passes through our feeble thoughts and that which is to be turned into 'statements of fact', just wonder sometimes the ease and the lack of caution, the odd clamoring that seems to be that of seeking 'high' things for ones self, wasn't the admonishen, '[i]seek them not?[/i]'. I know what Paul said, but I don't believe this is what he had in mind with...

1Co 14:1 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

Some commentary towards this...

[b]But rather that ye may prophesy[/b] - But especially, or particularly desire to be qualified for the office of prophesying. The apostle does not mean to say that prophecy is to be preferred to love or charity; but that, of the spiritual gifts which it was proper for them to desire and seek, prophecy was the most valuable. That is, they were not most earnestly and especially to desire to be able to speak foreign languages or to work miracles; but they were to desire to be qualified to speak in a manner that would be edifying to the church. They would naturally, perhaps, most highly prize the power of working miracles and of speaking foreign languages. The object of this chapter is to show them that the ability to speak in a plain, clear, instructive manner, so as to edify the church and convince sinners, was a more valuable endowment than the power of working miracles, or the power of speaking foreign languages.

On the meaning of the word “prophesy,” see the note at Rom_11:6. To what is said there on the nature of this office, it seems necessary only to add an idea suggested by Prof. Robinson (Greek and English Lexicon, under the article, Προφήτης Prophētēs), that the prophets were distinguished from the teachers (διδάσκαλοι didaskaloi), “in that, while the latter spoke in a calm, connected, didactic discourse adapted to instruct and enlighten the hearers, the prophet spoke more from the impulse of sudden inspiration, from the light of a sudden revelation at the moment (1Co_14:30, ἀποκάλυφθη apokalupthē), and his discourse was probably more adapted, by means of powerful exhortation, to awaken the feelings and conscience of the hearers.” The idea of speaking from “revelation,” he adds, seems to be fundamental to the correct idea of the nature of the prophecy here referred to. Yet the communications of the prophets were always in the vernacular tongue, and were always in intelligible language, and in this respect different from the endowments of those who spoke foreign languages.

The same truth might be spoken by both; the influence of the Spirit was equally necessary in both; both were inspired; and both answered important ends in the establishment and edification of the church. The gift of tongues, however, as it was the most striking and remarkable, and probably the most rare, was most highly prized and coveted. The object of Paul here is, to show that it was really an endowment of less value, and should be less desired by Christians than the gift of prophetic instruction, or the ability to edify the church in language intelligible and understood by all, under the immediate influences of the Holy Spirit.

Barnes' Notes

Obviously influenced by that same 'office' word, but taking all that is said there, in one sense we all are 'prophesying' when it carries "[i]the ability to edify the church in language intelligible and understood by all, under the immediate influences of the Holy Spirit.[/i]"

But that doesn't make us necessarily 'prophets' by title. Often it's just rambling opinion, a title that's glaringly obvious on this 'office' door :-D

Intrigued by Lahrys "I started a thread on "apostolic credentials". Any takers?"

Again not the 'title', but the 'make up'...

Hope there is some takers there, already thoughts toward spin offs from that, "discipleship credentials" first req. "Take up your cross"...
But I digress, one thing at a time.

Also liked this,

Quote:
Anointing comes from only once source. It cannot be immitated. It scares the daylights out of the well educated and those in "control". Selah.



A threat to the pride, no?


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Mike Balog

 2005/5/4 10:31Profile
philologos
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Posts: 6566
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 Re:

Quote:
so we should use service instead of office?

The Bible in both testaments is much more concerned with function than title. I like the word 'service' but sometimes even that becomes a technical word like 'ministry'. If we relentlessly use verbs rather than nouns we get closer to most of the references. The midwives... midwifed, if there is such a word! The priest did not fulfil their office they simply 'priested'.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/5/4 10:36Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

Quote:
I sure wish it was that simple brother! I can only prophesy when I am in the Spirit, and once I am in the Spirit, there is no way for me to control the message, other than to just stop speaking, and sometimes when the unction is great even that’s not possible.


Jimm
How would this relate to
Quote:
“Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. [u]And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.[/u]” (1Cor. 14:29-32, KJV)


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Ron Bailey

 2005/5/4 10:40Profile
Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
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 Re:

Quote:
"How come nobody is listening to me?" Seems to have an air of more importance with the 'bearer' than the 'message' often times.



It is not so much a concern for myself although I admit rejection does hurt but the fact that believers lack faith is very disconcerting. People say, “where are the prophets” but they really don’t want to know that. I do expect a measure of rejection from the world but from the church it hurts. Not because I feel important but because I know that I am nothing and therefore I suppose that, those who witness this working through me will be encouraged. I know that the Lord can work wonders through anyone, but I am not propagating seeking wonders but rather seeking Him in His fullness. My message is not, “run after the gift of prophesy” but for me, I did not so much as know that the Lord still did that…indeed my Bible commentary spoke directly against these gifts of the Spirit, dismissing them as “a thing which was necessary at the time, so as to set the foundation of the church, but once the foundation was set, they were no longer necessary”. This is one of the reasons I speak so freely about it, (so that those who hear my testimony may know the truth which is being stifled by these lies) by but not, mind you, in public, but here on the forum, where our purpose is to trade information. If we met in person, I probably would never mention it unless the Lord moved me to it.

There is so much territory the church is not claiming because we are afraid to acknowledge the workings of the Spirit. The paranoia, which says that, “all gifts are false gifts” is damaging to the church, my ego will get over it (it should be crucified in Christ, but I am still growing).

James



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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/5/4 11:14Profile
Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
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Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Re:

Quote:
Jimm
How would this relate to
Quote:

“Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.” (1Cor. 14:29-32, KJV)



Do you speak in tongues Brother Ron?

James



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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/5/4 11:15Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
eople say, “where are the prophets” but they really don’t want to know that. I do expect a measure of rejection from the world but from the church it hurts. Not because I feel important but because I know that I am nothing and therefore I suppose that, those who witness this working through me will be encouraged.



I have wrestled with this very much over the last year. I used to think that the 'prophets' should arise and come in guns blazing and set everyone strait. What I have found is a lot of zeal to speak words of correction come off as 'thrashing' and are not well received. Folk can tell when a message is ministered in love and out of real concern. A crowd can take about anything if they are real believers and the message is of the [i]right spirit[/i].

What [i]manor[/i] of spirit are the words coming out? I think we misunderstand the prophets and tend to clump together a lifetime of workings and in turn loose what the prophet was all about. There are 'snapshots' of their lives recorded for us; but are we to suppose that Elijah ran and overtook the horseman everyday? There is a lot of living going on between the sansational events.

Who was it that said when somene has aspirations to be a Prophet we can assume they are NOT one?

I also have to agree with Bro. Ron's assertion that the spirit of the prophets are subject to the prophets. If something gets ahold of us that we cannot control it seems to me it would be great cause for alarm (to say the least). This is how order is maintained in a service. If everyone declared they could not control themselves then they could blame God for everyting they say while under this 'power' or 'force'. Yet, we can be certain that we are ultimately going to give an account for every word that we speak- so it behooves us to realize this when we consider 'yielding' our members over without them being 'subject' unto us.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/5/4 11:37Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:
I sure wish it was that simple brother! I can only prophesy when I am in the Spirit, and once I am in the Spirit, there is no way for me to control the message, other than to just stop speaking, and sometimes when the unction is great even that’s not possible.



I'm wondering, is this "Spirit", that has been refered to, the same Spirit who's fruit is "self-control"? If not, why is the "S" capitalised? I've noticed that "prophets" of a questionable nature (hey I'm trying to be polite here), speak of the "Spirit" and "unction" as if it's a "spiritual force" and not a Person.
Quote:

"You can't blaspheme a force, you can only blaspheme a Person" - Jacob Prasch (Making reference to Jehovah's Witnesses understanding of the Holy Spirit)


Even false prophets like Mike Bickle and Kevin Van Der Westhuisen (sp?) call for order, with the later saying, "If you'll forget the word that God have between leaving the chair and picking up a microphone, then maybe God didn't give it to you."


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Aaron Ireland

 2005/5/4 11:42Profile
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Joined: 2004/6/15
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Mike
I said I am a prophet because that is what God told me I am. I didn't ask for it, in fact I didn't even want that responsibility, I thought prophets were of no use any more. Now why God chose me for this I have no clue, all I can say is that this is what He willed for my life and so here I am. He did warn me that this responsibility/office will come with mockery, rejection and then becoming hated among men. If you knew the half of drama that comes with this responsibility. I guess working for God in any othe capacity isn't so hard because at least there is a level of acceptance that comes with being an exhorter, teacher etc. For a prophet however, the road is lonely coz God sends one forth and noone wants to hear what God has to say through Him, that sucks. In all honesty I don't care if anyone hears and responds to what God puts on my spirit because my job is simply to say what I am told to say and do what I am told to do.

it's funny you should say though that it should be evident that I am prophet. How can that be if noone wants to hear from the prophets of GOd? My saying this is not a proclamation from the mountaintops but rather a statment of my coming to terms with what God has called me to do. People are looking for prophets, well here we are, yet how is it that when the Lord sends us forth with a word for the church noone wants to listen? That grieves my spirit more than anyone could ever know. It's not that I'M not being listened to that bothers me but rather that what God is speaking through me is not being heeded. That is what brings my spirit grief.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/5/4 11:42Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:
People are looking for prophets, well here we are, yet how is it that when the Lord sends us forth with a word for the church noone wants to listen? That grieves my spirit more than anyone could ever know. It's not that I'M not being listened to that bothers me but rather that what God is speaking through me is not being heeded. That is what brings my spirit grief.



"Prophets suffer for the people, with the people and by the people. If God's called you to be a prophet, then you better pledge your head to heaven." - Leonard Ravenhill (paraphrase).

Check out the message God gave Isaiah, when he finally understood the awesomeness of God, in Isaiah 6. Then You'll understand why know one listens to a true prophet. In fact, when a "prophet" is widely accepted by christendom, I question the validity of his claim. Reality is, few will acknowledge the prophet, but many will despise him.


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Aaron Ireland

 2005/5/4 11:53Profile





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