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 Re: Bro. Rah...

....thanks brother. God bless you real good today. Brother, I so agree with you about praying for revival. It is also evident that in times past, God did change His mind and did send revival. Ask Johah is this is not so.

Tell you what I will do, beloved. I will attach my requests to yours and together in agreement, we two shall seek the Lord for revival of His church into the image and likeness of Jesus Christ. Oh happy day.

Evidence of revival? Repentance followed by worship. Not worship taught in a seminar. Worship that comes from being in close fellowship with God. You may also be interested in reading the message I just posted on "How to".

May His love ever abound through you dear brother. If ever I seem to be unloving, please be faithful as you have been here and let me know. It's not my heart or my nature to do anything but exhort to be more like Jesus. I want to edify, not clang. Oh God, help me not to clang, in Jesus' Holy Name I pray.

 2005/5/17 10:37
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Dohzman
I think that sums up prophetic credentials then, prophets just are because God says so. The prophets can judge what other prophets bring forth because of a unique bond among them, the spirits of propehts bear witness to eachother. it's a weird connection.

We indeed have so limited God's ability to work in us and through us by many preconcieved notions which are largely false. Perhaps we should start over and let Him lead and teach us each day. Start from zero and say" ok God I knowo nothing, teach me"


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2005/5/17 17:41Profile









 Re: Prophetic Credentials re IRONMAN

Quote:
1Jo 4:17 By this love has been perfected [or, completed] with us, so that we shall be having confidence [or, a joyful sense of freedom] in the day of the judgment, because just as that One is, [so] also _we_ are in this world. I've always loved Jesus' own words where he said it would be enough to be as our master. I sometimes think that when we set our sights on being anything other than a true expression of Jesus Christ on earth, we've fallen short of what God had intended for us and for His Glory. God Bless Bro. Daryl



Bro dohzman - Inspiring words! Thank you. Amen! I'm challenged!

Quote:
The prophets can judge what other prophets bring forth because of a unique bond among them, the spirits of propehts bear witness to eachother. it's a weird connection.



IRONMAN - I'm not sure there is any more of a unique bond between prophets than between any other gifted Christians. Do you really think there is? Prophets can bear witness to each other only according to the witness the Spirit gives, surely? Isn't that what is meant by these verses in I Cor 14? -

29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Quote:
We indeed have so limited God's ability to work in us and through us by many preconcieved notions which are largely false. Perhaps we should start over and let Him lead and teach us each day. Start from zero and say" ok God I knowo nothing, teach me"



All of us have 'preconceived notions' which we have to give up for a renewed mind. At certain moments, we are granted a fresh glimpse of how little we know, (not just prophets)! :-)

 2005/5/17 20:27
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
The prophets can judge what other prophets bring forth because of a unique bond among them, the spirits of prophets bear witness to each other. It's a weird connection.


In our discussion on prophetic credentials, we have occasionally touched on another controversial subject: Church Government.

Paul wrote the somewhat unclear words: "And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." Did he mean that a prophet is subject only to other prophets according to a "unique bond?" or uncanny insight shared by prophets? Or was Paul referring to the ultimate authority of recorded scriptural prophecy and the delgated authority of the pastor or elder to judge all other prophecy accordingly?

Or was Paul referring to something else?

MC


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Mike Compton

 2005/5/17 22:20Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sister dorcas
I'm not saying that there is no bond between prophets and other gifted people but that prophets have an understanding of eachother that is unique to them. hence they can bear witness to eachother and are thus subject to one another. Perhaps it is that way from say evangelist to evangelist for example, I'm not sure.

I didn't mean that only prophets had to do away with preconcieved notions in order to serve God properly and if I did seem like that forgive me. I mean that we ALL as believers have much by way of ideas and theologies and other ologies and isms that we need to do away with.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/5/18 0:55Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

Compton
it has to do with a unique understanding in the Spirit among prophets. It's hard to explain but the closes thing I can think of that would make some kinda sense is I'm black and unless you're also black some things will just be abstract to you if you are white. I could explain some things to you but if you haven't experienced them or seen them from my perspective they don't have the same gravity for you. does that make sense?

I guess the understanding oddly enough would make sense most among prophets. maybe it is that way for the other offices? I'm not sure but that has been my experience anyway. If I were to speak with another prophet about how God has been dealing witj me or what He has shown me it would be much easier for the prophet to understand or listen seriously as opposed to anyone else. most people would probably think I've lost my marbles. :-? I'm finding that prophecy is much more involving than speaking of the future though that is probably what is best known about it.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2005/5/18 1:10Profile









 Re:

IRONMAN - Thank you for your testimony. What can I say? I will chew on this information.

Quote:
Paul wrote the somewhat unclear words: "And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." Did he mean that a prophet is subject only to other prophets according to a "unique bond?" or uncanny insight shared by prophets? Or was Paul referring to the ultimate authority of recorded scriptural prophecy and the delgated authority of the pastor or elder to judge all other prophecy accordingly?

Or was Paul referring to something else?



Compton - My belief is that the statement you quote from Paul, was made back then simply to point out that a person who is in the midst of prophesying has control of their faculties - their faculties are subect to their will. So, when another prophet receives revelation, the first prophet is to stop speaking and let the next continue. In this way, there would be order in their church meetings. The context of the statement leads to my understanding it this way. But, my Greek is not good enough to dispute the translations which suggest this was a matter between prophets.

 2005/5/18 6:57
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Red flags

Call it what you will, but the suspicision remains. All this defending seems contrary to whatever a prophet is or was in scripture, just don't find it there. If it must keep being brought forth as such, then by the same token the warnings must as well, there are far too many other brethren being caught up in all this not to.

Lifted from this thread with kudos to Ron (InTheLight):

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4861&forum=48#33769]I did not send them... yet they prophesied...[/url]

"The man who calls himself prophet and talks statistically (for example, seventy or eighty percent predictive accuracy) is not in keeping with the timbre, the character and the knit of a truly prophetic man. To determine whether a prophet is true or false should not immediately depend on whether their predictions are accurate. The real issue is not the accuracy of prediction in assessing the validity of prophets. Even to think statistically is to put us on a false basis in determining true and false among prophets. False prophets can bring a biblically correct message, but it is the kind of message that is a routine commonplace, that is to say, which virtually anyone can bring. There is nothing in it that can be faulted in terms of doctrine, but it is not oracular. It is not a message that bears prophetic weight, intensity, seriousness or requirement. Oracular speaking can be distinguished by the way it brings with it a perception of reality and of the purposes of God that were not there before that word came. It opens up things as God Himself sees them, which is altogether not as we see them!

If we allow the word ‘prophet’ to be given to anyone who is giving predictive prophecy or even the gift of knowledge or what may be more likely, clairvoyance, and call that oracular prophecy, then we are well on the way to deception! These men speak messages of a predictable kind, but they are usually only a preliminary that one has to wait through in order to get to the ‘action’ for which we have really come, namely, for their predictive and personal prophecies that so excite and titillate us as an audience. The greater issue is not whether these prophets are accurate most of the time so much as whether they are prophets at all! To confirm the church in its present lightness by their own example is analogous to the false prophets of Old Testament time who confirmed Israel in its sin. All in all, one must ask, "What is their revelation? How oracular is it? What is it more or other than the general preaching of others who make no profession of being prophetic? Is their distinctive not much more than the sensationalism or excitement of their gifts or the anticipation derived from the elevated status generated largely by their mutual affirmation of each other?"

-from The Spirit of Prophecy: An Examination of the Prophetic Call by Art Katz

More to be brought into consideration:
[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4200&forum=35#28334]Pillow Prophets[/url] (Brought forth from Ed {Gideons} and an article by David Wilkerson)

A different take perhaps...

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=3419&forum=48&post_id=&refresh=Go]Aspects of the Prophetic Office[/url]

Perhaps most importantly and of a first issue is some better defining and had taken awhile to find this, wish it could have been brought forth earlier:

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=3420&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Men spake from God[/url] Brought forth by Philologos.

This snippet from this last link, oddly the same expression as at the first here:

[i]The Functions of a Prophet.

[b]The prophet is not defined or explained in the Old Testa­ment; he is taken for granted.[/b] This is because he has existed from the very first (Luke 1:70; Acts 3:21), and has not been confined to Israel, e.g. Balaam (Num. 22:5), the prophets of Baal (IKings 18:19). There are true and false prophets among the nations, as there are in Israel. But Amos makes it clear that the prophets of Israel are a special gift of God (Amos 2:11) without real parallel among the Canaanites.[/i]


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Mike Balog

 2005/5/18 8:32Profile
Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Groanings which cannot be uttered...

Dorcas

Quote:
My belief is that the statement you quote from Paul, was made back then simply to point out that a person who is in the midst of prophesying has control of their faculties - their faculties are subect to their will.



This is true. My brother (IRONMAN) and I have different administrations. I will rarely prophesy about the subjects he does and he will rarely prophesy about the subjects I do. When we are together in the Spirit of the Lord, he (Farai) will speak forth concerning his area and while I do have a word from the Lord, I do not just cut him off while he is speaking, partly for the sake of order, and partly because I myself need to here what the Lord is saying. Sometimes it will occur that we prophesy at the same time, and that I will say half a sentence and the other half will come from him and some words we say at the same time. On one occasion as we prophesied to one Brother in prayer, I spoke with a very loud voice, and Farai would say the last few words in a calm still voice. There was a severity in that message of repentance but there was also a reassurance that he did not have to rely on his own righteousness but on the peace of God. It was one of the first occasions we prophesied together and what shocked me was, the fact that Farai would speak in immediate succession to me, as if he somehow knew what the last word would be and the exact moment when I would stop, so the sentences continued without interruption or discontinuity. I do not say that this was the consummation and the sum of the statement, “And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:” (John 17:22) but it was indeed an expression of it. One expression of prophesying with one accord was in Acts 4:23-31:

And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them. And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

I wonder if we recognize this as prophecy. While it is divinely inspired it is not necessarily a “make something happen” prophecy, it is a prophecy of praise, and many times this is the nature of our prophecies. Some prophecies are words of exhortation towards Christ by declaring the Excellency of Christ. Some are words of rebuke and admonishing by declaring the severity of God, and the impending doom judgment upon ungodliness. Some prophecies are indeed a seeing into the future, or a pronouncement of what God has executed in the immediate physical or spiritual realm, such as the one in Acts13:11, “And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.”. This is what I call a “make something happen” prophecy, the prophet prophesies and something happens, in this case blindness falls upon Barjesus. Now please do not zero in on that last statement as if it was all I have said in this post. The entire point here was not to define anything but to illustrate the different kinds of prophecies there are. Has this will cause shed a different light to some?

One thing that is marvelous here as SI is that we have all had the same or similar instructors in the Tozers and Ravenhills of this site. Please keep this in remembrance when you view what is written by the Brothers here. Let us not discriminate the eyes or the ears of the body because they do not perceive, as we perceive, or as an exhortation to become an eye or an ear, rather let us let us learn whatever we can form each other that we may use it in our own administrations. This is one thing I have been learning from my fellowship in Christ with Farai. There are some things he can do in the Spirit that I cannot, and there are other things that I can do that he cannot but this not a point of contention but one of edification. There are some prophecies which only he can execute because he has the unique gifting and relationship with Christ for it, and vise versa. I say this only to illustrate not to promote anything, for you guys who I cannot see you and I cannot even so much as receive a “pat on the back”, (I don’t want that, for the record) so please understand I am not after anything. I personally would rather not tell you because I look like an arrogant misguided heretic who promotes seeking after “signs and wonders”, and not after Christ but I am compelled to share for the benefit of those who can receive it. I love Jesus Christ and serve Him with my spirit everyday, and at the end of the day, he is the center of the church, and he is the center of all our (every Christian) ‘credentials’.

Sighs and tears

James


_________________
James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/5/18 12:03Profile









 Re: Groanings which cannot be uttered... + re crsschk

Jimm - I was deeply edified by your whole post. Amen. Thank you.

crsschk - If I have caused contention or departed from the parameters of scriptural truth, or am otherwise out of line, please say again, more directly to me. :-)

When I first met born again Christians, my preconceptions were challeneged by the thought that God was unaware of their (what I considered) unChristian attitudes; yet He seemed to speak [i]to[/i] them far more clearly and personally than I had ever known in anyone. This paradox mystified me into silence! as undoubtedly they were more in touch with God than I. Later, I discovered God has His own ways of creating priorities in a saint's life! Some of these are according to His work most immediately in need of being addressed, others, the direct result of one's own actions, inactions or desires. Once I realised I was just like them, I was mollified!

The exercise of faith often challenges us in areas where we have a God-given aspiration to be used by Him, or in which we are or have been made totally dependent on Him, because only He can sort out the difficulty in which one finds oneself. Somewhere in the midst of receiving His answers to one's own heart, one begins to hear His call to witness.

To my mind, this can never be restricted to a speaking ministry. Motherhood has taught me that God's involvement with us is 24/7 and intensely practical. But, one also finds oneself speaking into the lives of others not directly connected with church, thereby communicating God's interest directly to the world. I don't know if this is 'prophecy', but it has the effect of arresting the attention of those who do not know Him and directing them to acknowledge His interest in their lives, very similarly to 1 Cor 14:25.

I can't help but feel we are gifted by God in ways which promote His interest in bringing glory to Himself. This leads to some surprising combinations of people and gifts, which assist our amazement at His design. Also, created in us is a greater dependence on His grace.


 2005/5/18 15:02





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