IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
If you recall there were some of us talking about what the Lord had given us pretaining the future of certain cities and this(america) country. I think where it comes to TV ministries I might have somewhat of an inside track. My neighbor(now 89) was the setup man for the Kulman/Humbard tent revival days and was part of the Humbard Ministries and saw the effects of TV on the men and women involved in that ministry. Our talks are very enlighting. So to use a TV prophet is, in my estimation, a very poor model of a christian anything. Now before you get mad at me, I do believe that God has his properly placed TV ministries, God always has a remnant in place. Also I don't believe any one of us singles out each other to throw stones at, but to keep on topic the bottom line came down to issues of character with in the calling of a prophet(generally speaking). Just think if the church was to operate the way it is suposed to a prophetic utterance might go something like this: "The lord says.................", then the attention turns to several others considered as prophets and after prayer, thought, possibly a searching out of scripture or even discussion on what was just brought forth. A public judgement on it is made. That judgement would be to recieve it---reject it---- or shelve it. Ouch* , now that would really hurt the ole' ego wouldn't it? Sure would take a humble man or woman to walk that road. Blessing Bro. Daryl
I don't remember the discussion you are talking about bro dohzman.When I spoke of people who were experts supposedly who i've seen on t.v. it was in refernce to the reverence with which we tend to treat some of the things they say. Now sure why I would be mad at you though :-? I wish it would be so that a prophet would be able to say "thus saith the Lord" in church and people would simply listen *sigh* Whose ego would be hurt the prophets' or the churchs'?
| 2005/5/11 20:48||Profile|
I guess the fellowship I attend and most of the assemblies I go to, I see liberty in the expression of the Holy Spirit's giftings. I agree with much of what I see others, yurself included, write how ever I tend to look at the glasss half full in respects to the church. When I preach I have a hardline message on discipleship and the seperation from the ways of the world. But I stay positive in my outlook on the church , I do have my moments, but I trust the Lord. In my fellowship there's liberty with the vocal gifts just no real judging of them which can sometimes be more dangerous than not allowing the prophetic at all. So I guess I approach this subject a little differently since I watch the conduct of those being exercised in the giftings.
| 2005/5/11 20:59||Profile|
I must be candid in my remarks, so please forgive any foolishness and presumptions that are not accurate, but I say this just so you know what I think
for the record. This remains a difficult topic. It may have been too ambitious of me to believe that what was lacking was simply information, but it far deeper than that, and I cannot convey that in writing. I suppose that I have expressed myself s best I could have in writing. It seems clear to me that people are either afraid to acknowledge what prophecy really is, or that they are misinformed. Prophesying is speaking out of divine inspiration from the Spirit of God and this is not necessarily interpretation of scripture. Preaching is a definite administration in the body of Christ, and an important one, but, prophesying is quite different to preaching. There is a distinction between the two, according to scriptures, and we cannot just say prophesying is preaching since we are more comfortable with the idea of preaching.
Today God expresses Himself through many ministries and prophecy is just one of them, but it cannot stand independently. The impression that most people have of a prophet is that of a hero and it for this reason that they are offended when one says they are a prophet because the believe the claim is synonymous with claiming to be a hero. A prophet is not a separate entity from the church, as if he is come to aid the church as an external force, rather, a prophet is a part of the body, and is no more important than any other part. The nature of the revelation that is from prophecy is somewhat personal and must be simply accepted by faith, after all, which of the men who were used by God was the same as another? Which apostles writing style was the same as another? Yet they were all inspired by the same Spirit. This is because all members of the body of Christ are a different expression of Christ. Any expression of prophecy that does not lead to Christ, or leads away from Christ is false. Any prophecy that does not come from the Spirit of Christ is false- whether it be from the Devil, the flesh or the natural man.
Prophesying is not an exercise of memory, intelligence or experience (I do not believe that there is anything wrong with those things but they are not prophecy, and there is nothing wrong with that). Prophesying is when God expresses Himself through man vocally. Examine the scriptures and you will find that it is true. It is gift and is not earned or acquired by works and experience. If we truly understand what true prophesying is and we do not just turn it into something that is less because we are more comfortable with that, we would see why it is the highest order of gifts. Its is above miracles, healing and teaching (teaching is not necessarily prophecy).
I guess when I say that something is not prophecy some get the impression that I am belittling their ministry but I am not, teaching and preaching are still of the Spirit and deeply convicting and useful, and necessary, but they are not prophecy. Prophecy is the epitome of Thus saith the Lord, and the one who prophesies has the capacity to allow the Spirit of the Lord to speak through him. When a true prophet (notice I am talking about the true ones here knowing that there are many false ones, but let this not blind us from the truth, and let us not become too preoccupied with them) says Thus saith the Lord, he is signifying that it is no longer him that speaks but the Spirit of the Lord in him. It is not necessary to say thus saith the Lord, but a distinction must be made between me giving an interpretation (and that has its place, an important place, but that does not make it prophecy) and the Holy Spirit of God addressing people though me.
Now whether you believe that I have this gift or not is of no consequence but you must get it right my fellow saints, we cannot just call anything prophecy. It is for this reason that I said that if I prophesy in the morning and then I go and tell my brother about it in the evening, that is not prophesying, precisely because the message now proceeds from my memory and not from the Spirit of God. The Lord my allow me to prophesy the message again, by allowing His Spirit to speak through me and that would be prophesying, but, if it is not from the Spirit and it is from my memory (and there is nothing wrong with that) I am a not [i]prophesying[/i] even though the message is prophetic (consider that statement very very carefully).
Prophesying must be form the Spirit of God. If a I exercise knowledge acquired through prophecy (even if it is my own prophecy) and revelation that I am not prophesying, I am teaching (and that must also be lead by the Spirit but it is quite different from thus saith the Lord). Paul referes to himself as an apostle and a teacher (2Ti1:11 For this gospel I was appointed a herald, apostle, and teacher,) because there is a distinction between the administration of Apostleship and that of teaching, but they are both from the Spirit and none is more important than the other. In the same sense there is a distinction between the administration of the prophetic and that of teaching, but they are form the same Spirit and none is more important than the other. I am not saying that knowledge, wisdom, revelation and experience are nothing, but that is not prophesying.
I used to believe that there was a distinction between one who prophesies and a prophet but, the bible makes no such distinction. If one can show that to me scripturally (in the new testament, because the dynamics of The Body of Christ are quite different from that of the nation Israel) I may change my mind. Now whether a prophet has to be able to prophesy I am not sure about, but from what I can see, scriptures refer to people who prophesy as prophets.
James Gabriel Gondai Dziya
| 2005/5/11 22:02||Profile|
| Re: Prophesying|
James, that is just really well said. Thank you. Anyone who knows that the Lord has used their vessel as a means to get His heart to others at that moment, knows exactly what you are talking about.
As you well put it, it is a gift. Oh the things that have gone through me that I have failed to write down. They are lost forever. Some I know, were huge, but I did not stop and write them down and lost them. Oh my, forgive me Lord. Before I really understood this, I tried not to focus on it, because I was not sure of myself. I'm still not sure of myself, may it never be, but I more easily recognize when God is using me to bless or help another. You cannot turn it on or off. It does not come from memory. It's like the newsline at the bottom of network news. It just passes through you. If it is not recorded in some way, it's gone. Oh you may remember bits and pieces, but it's not the same.
I've preached messages in the middle of the night that I know were powerful and Spirit filled to the max. But I did not get up and write it down, and lost them forever.
I never really know or have any idea when God will use me again. If He never does use me again, I cannot cease to praise His Holy Name. I thank Him for how He has used me, and I'm overwhelmed that He did so to bless and encourage another, even if it was only one.
In this electronic arena we call cyberspace, you just never know when God is going to match need with what is written. It may be someone half way around the world that we will never meet. They may never contact us. Oh but God knows, and the person that got helped knows. Every now and then, God will love you enough to have someone write back to you. It is joy unspeakable, but oh so humbling. Who am I that God would use little old wretched me. Yet I cannot deny that at times He does.
I got a note one time from a guy named "Ralph". I have no idea where he was. He just thanked me for the messages I was writing. He told me that everytime I posted one, he would print it out and go and share it with his next door neighbor. My, my. Now I dont' know about you, but to me, that is joy unspeakable and oh so very wonderful. Oh the Love God has that He still uses saints to do His will. May we ever watch and wait for Him to nod toward us and give us liberty to be used by Him to touch others in love. Glory be to God, now and forever more amen.
| 2005/5/12 8:36|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: Confession time...|
Before I really understood this, I tried not to focus on it, [b]because I was not sure of myself. I'm still not sure of myself, may it never be, but I more easily recognize when God is using me to bless or help another.[/b] You cannot turn it on or off. It does not come from memory. It's like the newsline at the bottom of network news. It just passes through you. If it is not recorded in some way, it's gone. Oh you may remember bits and pieces, but it's not the same.
That it seems is a big part of all of this, where the doubts go and the cautions come from or more so are aimed at. I am not sure of so many things and the effort here to express... [i]reflection[/i] on all of this is what my heart is trying to conve albeit in such a sloppy way.
Needed to back off and do a little practice what I am 'preaching' here and as sometimes it is put "I am preaching this as much to myself as I am to you", we hear it often times and it can ring shallow as just some more nice "Christian-ese".
I think the effort is to scratch and claw and dig deep down into these things until we get as close as possible to the truth. And at times it gets overdone, and a lot of times we can end up talking right past each other without really taking into consideration what each is saying, it's that rush to speak without really having given time to reflect and, here is the biggest and the one the Lord has been challenging me on...
With all that has been said and my uttmost sincerity is that of concern, [i]because[/i] [b]many[/b] false .... have gone out into the world of primary reality. The other is in the fact that we can be decieved, the mind is a great trickster and the devil is and always will be a liar. A lot of questions came out an about from this whole thing and not a few red flags and probably the biggest of them all was what I percieve to be a rampant problem throughout and it was brought up here: Ramifications. That there is either a wholesale disregard or that it lies somewhere lower in the order of things is very much a concern. And it is just as much to the speaker as to the hearer. Again this a kind of both/and. The ones here as well as the one's 'out there'.
As such the ones 'out there' for the most part seem to lack humility, there is a sense of being 'above it all', without reproach, without question and we would be quite foolish not to test them in thought, word and deed. But I digress, have beaten this into plowshares in a failing attempt to convey a real concern and gone to another extreme that sounds and is in some ways to much of an accusation towards a few here.
My apologies to you brothers, you know who you are. Fewer words might have expressed it better:
Are you sure?
Does any of the things brought up here cause you to reflect? Do we both see our propensities to defend more than to clarify? Are we more concerned with what we think the scriptures say or do we let them interpet us? Ought we not to be even more careful especially in our day with what we percieve to be the oracles of God that will get past our lips and out through the finger tips here? That we are here to help one another ultimately and not make wholesale accusations against each other but neither are we to ignore or compromise, nor stop up our ears at the brethren who are sharing their concerns from the heart, to the benefit of all.
I know I have gone too far as this has been preoccuping much energy and thought and the prompting that I knew and felt an indicted myself earlier here was in not listening to what the Holy Spirit was driving at...
And that was, prayer. Specific, pulled away from everything kind of prayer. Prayer without ceasing, yes always. But there is a difference and came home to me more yesterday just in the normal course of things as I pondered some of the problems around here at home and the carrying around of much of this discussion in thought...
"It is because you have not prayed" Came to mind, but not from my mind, it was the Holy Spirit. (I do have some confidence in hearing from the Lord :-( )
And just as nicely this morning an article from brother Lars came through from Andrew Murray and go figure...
[u]"RESTRAINING PRAYER IS IT SIN?"[/u]
Thou restrainest prayer before God. JOB 15:4.
What profit should we have, if we pray unto Him? JOB 21:15.
God forbid that I should sin against the Lord in ceasing to pray for you, 1 SAM. 12:23.
Neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you. JOSH. 7:12.
[i]If we are to deal effectually with the lack of prayer we must look at it from this point of view and ask, Restraining prayer, is it sin? And if it be, how is it to be dealt with, to be discovered, and confessed, and cast out by man, and cleansed away by God? Jesus is a Saviour from sin. It is only as we know sin truly that we can truly know the power that saves from sin. The life that can pray effectually is the life of the cleansed branch the life that knows deliverance from the power of self. To see that our prayer-sins are indeed sins, is the first step to a true and Divine deliverance from them.[/i]
For all the zeal and concern, the one that convicted me (Oh it is a good thing to be convicted) was:
God forbid that I should sin against the Lord in ceasing to pray for you, 1 SAM. 12:23.
To you Jimm and the Man of Iron for all my heartfelt concern for you, I still failed here. This was my rebuke and I thank God for showing it to me and I repented of it and come to you to express my failure, forgive me.
And the beauty of it is that I did indeed do something about it and brought you both up before the Lord and by doing so He in return gave me a different perspective on matters. A more true heartfelt concern for your souls and your hearts and minds. There are some concerns yet still in this whole arena, but you are both brothers here and this is far bigger than a matter of spirtual giftings... What is the Lord after? It's a mighty big question. Hopefully it may cause us all to pause and consider and reflect on that as it applies to the this whole area.
[i]For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; [b]that in all things he might have the preeminence[/b].[/i]
| 2005/5/12 10:19||Profile|
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
| Re: Is it a stumbling stone|
I have another question, does someone who classes themselves as a prophet have any validity outside of the church? I have a small hunch that no they don't.
'If' that is true, then the credentials of a prophet or an apostle or any other calling can be gauged by the church in which that prophet, apostle etc ministers, or in the case of the apostole from which he is sent. So regarding the sons of thunder, are they recoginised within the local church as operating in that gifting then, I certainly must trust that that local congregations leadership has having recognised what God is already doing in that individual.
| 2005/5/12 13:15||Profile|
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
We are not recognized in a local church as prophets. The realization of this responisibility has come by God taking us out of that setting and dealing with us more intimately. In this dealing He has shown us that in actuality the saints will be the last people to heed whatever message we have from Him. Now that sounds like an oxymoron but it's beginning to make sense now. I mean look at this whole discussion, i mentioned that I am a prophet and I have yet to say anything that God has revealed to me and yet there has been a general reluctance or resistance to that.I don't have a voice that thunders nor can I call forth columns of fire from heaven to prove I am a prophet, God Himself will see through whatever words He places on my lips. In short people say they want to hear from prophets but the messages that God sends through the prophets are heeded by very few untill it is late. Look at all the prophets who went before, Noah fortold of the coming flood and noone listened, Jeremiah spoke of the impending doom of Israel for many years and noone believed him either. People ask for prophets but don't really want to hear from them.There is a grief in my spirit about this not because it is me being rejected, I can live with that but rather the word of God He is communicating through me is what will be rejected.
I didn't wake up one day and say "mmm I think I shall be a prophet" so I didn't class myself as a prophet by pulling that out of the air.I never asked God for this, I didn't even know God still had prophets out there nor did I even want it and yet He said to me "that's your job" I thought God has made some sort of mistake but He assured me He has not. I lament sometimes 'why did I agree to this?" God said to me I chose you for this work and I will see it through and that is my comfort.What things must one have to become a prophet,I don't know really, God just picks and chooses as He pleases. It could just have easily been
ZekeO, if we were to go to our congregation or any other and say " ok we are prophet sent of God with a message for you" I don't think we would be well receieved. We might end up being tossed out without even passing on the message. What prophet was ever accepted by the people? They all tended to be outcasts as far as I know, grieving quietly. in solitude. it would be nice if we could do that though, it seems the church structure has no room in it for prophets.
If not being accepted as a prophet in a congregation means one is not a prophet then what of the elijahs and jeremiahs who had not congregations (as far as I know so I may be wrong) ?
All I know is what God said to me, He said it, I believe it and that settles it for me. Not sure I can make that any plainer. noone needs to believe it nor accept it but whatever I speak that has come from God, God Himself will hold up, that goes for anyone else who comes forth with a word from God.
| 2005/5/12 14:01||Profile|
| Re: ...their own house|
I have another question, does someone who classes themselves as a prophet have any validity outside of the church? I have a small hunch that no they don't.
I was about to agree with you when Martin Luther King Jr. came to mind! I believe he was a prophet, but he wasn't validated by a large portion of the church.
It's a shame that much of the church (divided by racial forces) ostracized him during his lifetime. In fact, even today many in the church remain reluctant to embrace him. I'll have to consider this a little more.
Perhaps the church can fail to recognize a true prophet...at least initially. That doesn't mean that the church must not gauge it's prophets because why else would Jesus warn us about false ones? It may however mean that some prophets, during their testing, must walk lonely untraveled roads removed from the comfort of others.
If that's true, then I guess it's back to the drawing board for some of my preconceptions. There may be a few lonely prophets out there, alienated by the church, that could use a cup of water...or a cup of kindness.
"Then Jesus said to them, "Prophets are not without honor, except in their hometown, and among their own kin, and in their own house."
| 2005/5/12 14:16||Profile|
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
| What I have been thinking|
Quote:I have been raised to belive in church and the way it operates, Gods plan is the whole church working together as a co-ordinated body. So I believe fully and trust that the leadership of that church would acknolwledge what God has placed within you. [i] A man's gift maketh room for him, and bringeth him before great men. Proverbs 18:16[/i] The church is not your enemy, neither are the people within the church your enemy. In saying that I acknowledge that those who are our fiercest critics come from within the church.
We are not recognized in a local church as prophets.
The prophetic calling as you understand it is maybe a bit different to the way that I see it. I am part of a church that is hungering for more of God, so I view any gifting through the lenses of the quality if leader in the church and the NT fumctions of the the five-fold. For me I do not see that a prophet has rebukes for the church that is living in sin as a default setting. I may be presuming what your message is, but please bear in mind I am talking about what constitutes prophetic credentials. The prophetic 'office/function' is to help keep the structural integrity of the church...[i]built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets...Eph 2:20[/i] This does not always necesitate a confrontation of sin. It does however keep the church focussed as to its real call and task.
It just seems to me from my observations that many would presume that a prophet is of the OT classic type. You know camel skinned, fire calling, silent loner, acting and sounding like Elijah...[i]I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too...1 kings 19:14[/i] I understand what Compton was saying and I agree, a prophet is without honour most times in his own home town, how can I disagree, Jesus experienced the same thing. Within the church however and I would believe within your church there are...[i]seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him. 1 kings 19:18[/i]
I am not challenging your call and your comments about you being a prophet, I am just clarifying, maybe for my own benfit what makes a prophet? How does he operate? etc. I actually am not really bothered about your claims, It is what makes a prophet that I am interested in? At more to the point of this whole thread, what are his credentials and who bears witness to those credentials. I feel that after so many others have posted I may just be behind the eight ball on this one.
Quote: The point is that Gods plan is church, that is his 'A' plan always was and always will be. Apostolic christianity is about making two one, that through the cross God was not only restoring us to himself, but us to each other. I do not believe that there is any room in NT christianity for living in ones cave away from the world or the brethren. The church is people and no function I believe within the church should accomadate men/women living an isolationist lifestyle because knowone would listen to the message.
If not being accepted as a prophet in a congregation means one is not a prophet then what of the elijahs and jeremiahs who had not congregations.
| 2005/5/12 17:02||Profile|
| Re: What I have been thinking|
Thanks so much for reminding me that I definitely do not pray enough. I pray more now than ever before. But is it enough? Hardly. God has been gracious of late to answer some of what I asked, and in fine fashion I might add. The testimony of this job I currently have is God all the way. I am in awe. Yet I do not steal away with Him often enough.
I am beginning to feel that draw of love however, to be with Him more. Just be with Him. No agenda. Just hang out with God. What could be better than that? The outcome? God only knows, but I know it will greatly bless me. If He fills me up, then it will not be difficult to spill out on others. Oh God let me spill You out. Break me oh God, that I may not keep thee from the thirsty. Alleluia. Glory be to God.
Many years ago, I was in a home meeting. The lady of the house told me at the end of the meeting, to go home and read Jeremiah 15:19-21. That she said was what God was speaking to me. It is as follows:
Jer 15:19 Therefore thus says the Lord [to Jeremiah]: If you return [and give up this mistaken tone of distrust and despair], then I will give you again a settled place of quiet and safety, and you will be My minister; and if you separate the precious from the vile [cleansing your own heart from unworthy and unwarranted suspicions concerning God's faithfulness], you shall be My mouthpiece. [But do not yield to them.] Let them return to you--not you to [the people].
Jer 15:20 And I will make you to this people a fortified, bronze wall; they will fight against you, but they will not prevail over you, for I am with you to save and deliver you, says the Lord.
Jer 15:21 And I will deliver you out of the hands of the wicked, and I will redeem you out of the palms of the terrible and ruthless tyrants.
Oh how I still marvel at this text. It says so much more than I can share here. I had to stop distrusting God. I also had to seperate the precious from the vile. Can I tell you that I could not do that, but had to rely on God. He has made major changes in my life to bring this to pass.
My cup of mud has had a lot of dirt mixed in with the living water. At times I'd be so connected with the heart of God, and at other times, I was on the other side of the bronze wall wondering where am I and how did I get there. But it's getting better, I think.
The last major thing I want to share is that I should not go to them, but they come to me. To me, that is the internet. I come here to my terminal connection and share. God brings people from all over the world to read what is written. I don't have to go to India necessarily, they come to me. I don't have to go to Bulgaria, they come to me. It is so incredible, I can hardly comprehend it yet it is so easy for God to bring to pass when we fully rely upon Him.
Oh this passage so ministers to me. It is so personal to me. Maybe that is why I love Jeremiah so much.
Finally dear saints and prophets, I'll leave you with this. I was praying online one morning. It was getting very intense, I was already weeping before the Lord. I could hardly operate the keys. I prayed "oh God my God, I want to be all I can be in You.....". He spoke so sweetly into my soul, "rather My son, I want to be all I can be in you!" That took me down. God wants to be all He can be in us. Dare we limit His presence and activity by our shallow thinking or concern for our personal reputation and "status"? Oh God help us all.
I do read my bible, though never enough. I love to sing praises to the Lord, though I do not do that enough. But when I write and it has any anointing on it at all, it comes instantly and beyond me. I don't study or prepare. That's what teachers do. I'm not a teacher, although I can teach. Something just rises up within me, much like the first time that God blessed me with the awareness of His glory. I type it and post it as it comes. I leave it for others, for whosoever will. Let the comments fall where they may, I'm relieved of my burden. I'm not indignant, or so I hope. I just leave it with God. I trust Him.
The wonderful thing about the internet is that many who are of "the remnant" are here. Many of those are here on SI. Thanks be to God. I need each of you in my life. You all add to me the love and wonderful wonder of Jesus Christ. God bless you and keep you, lead you and guide and you prosper all that you lay hand upon.
If I write something that upsets or offends, hopefully it does not lack love. If I write something that blesses, hopefully you will give thanks unto God and worship Him. A data entry person has little to do with the data entered. They just do their job with what is given. If nobody gives them anything to enter, they are out of work. I'm the same way. I just enter data. If God does not supply data to enter, I have nothing to say. I never know when He is going to give me anything at all. I am getting better at recognizing His activity.
So I try not to think about it, I just do it when it comes, as unto the Lord. I give Him so much liberty, that I try not to judge anything myself. I just basically share my heart. It's not that I have a good heart, I just have a good God that lives there. I yield myself to Him and His love. I fall in wonder to Him being mindful of me at all. I can't help but worship Him and give Him all the glory, honor, and praise, in Jesus' Holy and Gracious Name. Amen and amen.
| 2005/5/13 8:52|