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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
A large section of the church today seems to be trying to lower the standard of integrity in ministry.



There's a power packed statement...


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/5/10 10:19Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

Quote:
Not sure that 'works' there brother. If 'in the morning you are "prophecing"... to whom? If there are no hearers, then what is it that construes it as 'prophecy'? It may be communication in prayer with the Lord...not following here.



Prophecy is not necessarily always heard by another person. Prophecy reveals God's wisdom to all creation so it may be prophecying to various prinicipalities and powers or other players in the spirit realm.

Quote:
1) It should be said in the first place.

Quote:
Is truly from the Lord.

Quote:
2) What the ramifications are from what might be said, not so much in a paranoid fashion, but have you considered everything? Are you sure of it?



If the Lord gives the spirit unction then the spirit will speak. If it is from the Lord or not, well, there have yet to be any thunderings and lightnings to prove that the words are indeed from Him, it is more a matter of faith and excercising that faith that God has indeed placed these things on your spirit. That's kinda like asking, how do yopu know when you are in love.You can't really explain it, you just know. After a while one must trust the Lord completely concerning this gift. There is really no reason to be concerned about the ramifications of what is said, if God put it on you in spirit, the concern should be more about what if I DON'T speak what He puts on my spirit.With this gift and all the other ones that come from God, he requires us to be like children, to just trust Him, no questions asked and therein is the stumbling block for many saints.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/5/10 14:47Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Bearing Witness

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:
Prophecy is not necessarily always heard by another person.

Can someone be classed as a prophet if knowone hears him? Who bears witness to someones claim that they are a 'prophet' or a whatever? Sure God does, but within the church, how does it happen?


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/5/10 15:20Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: Prophetic Credentials.....


Man this thread is really rolling! ... :-P


Brother Aaron wrote:
"A large section of the church today seems to be trying to lower the standard of integrity in ministry. Perhaps there is a fear that unless they do, their will be no one for the job? Regardless of the rationale, this is COMPROMISE".


Amen ... that's exactly what brother Guinness says in his book "Prophetic Untimeliness" ... You might find this interesting ...

How The Church Has Lost It’s Savor …
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5563&forum=35

 2005/5/10 15:33Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: On the contrary

Quote:
Prophecy is not necessarily always heard by another person. Prophecy reveals God's wisdom to all creation so it may be prophecying to various prinicipalities and powers or other players in the spirit realm.


Where do you find that in scripture?

Quote:
If the Lord gives the spirit unction then the spirit will speak. If it is from the Lord or not, well, there have yet to be any thunderings and lightnings to [b]prove[/b] that the words are indeed from Him,


None are needed, only that they are true and come to pass.
Quote:
it is more a matter of faith and excercising that faith that God has indeed placed these things on your spirit. That's kinda like asking, how do yopu know when you are in love.You can't really explain it, you just know. After a while one must trust the Lord completely concerning this gift.

Fair enough, if you keep it to yourself...
Quote:
There is really no reason to be concerned about the ramifications of what is said, if God put it on you in spirit, the concern should be more about what if I DON'T speak what He puts on my spirit.With this gift and all the other ones that come from God, he requires us to be like children, to just trust Him, no questions asked and therein is the stumbling block for many saints.


O contre! You best be concerned, even if the Lord put's something in your spirit at what point did we ever get the idea to relagate our God given brains to the trash pile? Not to supercede the Spirit, that is often our biggest struggle, but no, this is precisely the problem, that it get's turned around by those that want to claim this gift as their own and when questioned on it, it becomes a 'stumbling block'. What do you do with 'the prophets are subject to the prophets' then?

Quote:
With this gift and all the other ones that come from God, he requires us to be like children, to just trust Him, no questions asked


I don't recall this being refered to in the area of gift's, thought this had to do with entering the kingdom of heaven....

This is dangerous reasoning and what is seen so much in our day, a re-catagorizing and reading into the scriptures what we want it to say.

Think Aaron's bringing forth some definitions is helpful here, if we were to give them some attention.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/5/10 16:17Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

So do you think we should stone and kill every prophet who makes an error in the declarations of God? May that wouldn't be a bad idea :-P :-P :-P just joking, somewhat.


_________________
D.Miller

 2005/5/10 16:18Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

One more thought--- according to the old jewish sages a true prophet could sit down and write the first 5 books from memory without error. Maybe that would be better. ;-)


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D.Miller

 2005/5/10 16:21Profile
Jimm
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Re:

Hey guys

Wait a minute fellas!:-) Please note, I did not say I did not care what the prophet was. At this point I cannot help wondering if you are really reading what I am saying:

Quote:
Whether a man can prophesy or not is not necessarily a reflection of His spiritual maturity (note again the prophets at Corinth). I am not saying that immature prophets are the sum of all things and should not be touched, but I am saying that the fact that they have not grown does not change what they are. Paul still referred to the carnal prophets at Corinth as prophets. A prophet is just like any other Christian, he can be carnal or he can be Spirit lead. If he is carnal he needs the support prayer and fellowship from the body of Christ, he is not dismissed altogether however he is monitored more strictly by the mature ones and those with the gift of discernment. And he (after my judgment) should not prophesy as regularly in the whole congregation, but rather more so in the presence of the elders. Do you follow me?



Quote:
A prophesy is either from the Spirit of God or it is not. If a prophesy is not from the Spirit of God (whether it be from the flesh or the Devil) this is what is known as a ‘false prophesy’ because it doe not proceed from the Spirit of truth.



Before we get into the whole prophesy vs prophet discussion can we first agree on what prophesy is. Again let me say plainly, prophesy is either from the Spirit of God or it is not. And while we are at it, prophesy is not necessarily predicting the future, in fact more often prophesy is not that, rather it is a proclamation of part of the counsel of God via His own Spirit. If a prophesy is not from the Spirit of God this is what is known as a ‘false prophesy’ because it does not proceed from the Spirit of truth. In this respect John is very helpful with the following statement:

1 John 4:1-3 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

That seems pretty plain to me and so an exposition on that would be rather facetious on my part. “Trying the spirits” is not necessarily a mental inquiry (although that is important). I always believed that this was way too simple a test, but as I began to apprehend the extent of evil of these spirits I started to understand that it was actually impossible for them to confess the Lord Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

If I do not have a word form the Lord I cannot simply begin to prophesy on any subject I wish, it must come from His Spirit otherwise it is not prophesy. Just as every word you speak when you speak in tongues is not your own, every word of prophesy is also not your own. As a prophet I may learn many things from prophesy, and acquire wisdom, if I speak based on this wisdom this becomes preaching or teaching and not prophesying. Prophesying is prophesying. If it is not directly Spirit lead and inspired it is simply not prophesy.

True prophesy must proceed from the Spirit of truth, this is way beyond the simplicity of accuracy, this is a question of the source. Have I been baptized with the Spirit or haven’t I? Do I have the gift of prophesy or do I not have it? This is an either or question, if you can prophesy and you have received the Spirit, you know about it. (Yes some people are mistaken, but again, I cannot speak for every individual who thinks they are a prophet). It is a simple question of whether I have this administration or not, just as there can be no question, I cannot work miracles, I do not have the gift of “miracle working”. If I suddenly begin to work miracles there is a clear demarcation from when I did and when I did not. I do not just gradually begin to believe I can work miracles, it is either I can or I cannot. In the same sense I (please not I said [b]I[/b], not Benny Hinn and every other person under the sun) do no just one day decide to myself, “I think I will prophesy now”. It is a gift of the Spirit, you can just tell that these words are not your own. I can pray and be lead by the Spirit in prayer, but prophesy is altogether different. Prophesy is just that, prophesy, just as speaking in tongues is speaking in tongues and I am either doing that or I am not.

The definition for prophesying is not as broad as some have made it. The definition of a prophet actually should be pretty simple but I believe that at this point there is a myriad of questions and so I will stop here.

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/5/10 16:23Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

dohzman wrote:
One more thought--- according to the old jewish sages a true prophet could sit down and write the first 5 books from memory without error. Maybe that would be better. ;-)



Beautiful. I was going to state the same thing, only in alot more words (Mike, take note of this;-)). Katz has made references to the idea of every prophet that comes after Moses (bearing in mind that only Jesus is the "prophet like unto Moses"), drew upon the teaching of Moses, or one who came after him, for his declarations. The idea being, one of an interpretation of "cause and effect" of divine prinbciples (which are not there as a list of "do's and don'ts", but to display the potential consequences of disobedience, apart form God's mercy), particularly those found in the book of Deuteronomy. For those who think that I'm being legalistic, don't forget that Paul's wonderfull defintion of the difference between the "righteousness from the Law" and the "righteous of Faith", in Romanas 10, finds every scriptural reference in this book.

We cannot, I repeat [b]cannot[/b] assume to be of greater authority and inspiration, than Moses, who received his revelation "face to face with God". Yes, we are greater than he (and every other prophet, before John the Baptist), but only as a result of the legacy that they left us. Anything else is to open oneself up to deceiving spirits.

I reiterate my earlier statement: Deception that is subtle, in nature, is the most dangeous of all, because it is the most convincing. Don't forget brethren, then serpent use [b]factual statements[/b] in the garden, to deceive Eve (ponder on that thought).

I'm yet to read on person bring up a [b]scriptural arguement[/b] to refute any of my statements, although they are being contradicted by the [b]human experience[/b], of the posters. Brethren, I assure you, that I have human experience to back up my claims, however I don't need to bring them up, because [b]scripture is enough[/b]. Moses (and Jesus) said that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses, a thing is established." Whether it's the OT and NT, Law and the Prophets, Jesus and Moses, Paul and Moses, or even Mike and Daryl;-), however you interperate that statement, the [b]physical evidence[/b] alone, requires me not to testify (although, I have already done that, in part).

Please forgive me, if I have offended (because I have offended myself). I have been fighting the appearance of arrogance, in my posts, however, this is becoming harder and harder as time goes on. Perhaps, it's time to shake the dust of my feet in this thread, before I cross any lines (if I haven't already:cry:).


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Aaron Ireland

 2005/5/10 20:27Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Jimm wrote:
Again let me say plainly, prophesy is either from the Spirit of God or it is not. And while we are at it, prophesy is not necessarily predicting the future, in fact more often prophesy is not that, rather it is a proclamation of part of the counsel of God via His own Spirit. If a prophesy is not from the Spirit of God this is what is known as a ‘false prophesy’ because it does not proceed from the Spirit of truth. In this respect John is very helpful with the following statement:

1 John 4:1-3 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


v5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
v6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. [b]Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.[/b]

Quote:

True prophesy must proceed from the Spirit of truth, this is way beyond the simplicity of accuracy, this is a question of the source. Have I been baptized with the Spirit or haven’t I? Do I have the gift of prophesy or do I not have it? This is an either or question, if you can prophesy and you have received the Spirit, you know about it. (Yes some people are mistaken, but again, I cannot speak for every individual who thinks they are a prophet).


This gets to the crux of what I am trying to say, James. Too many people take it for granted that they are baptised in the Spirit, and many base this on the presence of the gift of tongues (by the way, I speak in tongues). It don't know if you have watched to the [url="http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile?lid=1702"]Leonard Ravenhill interview[/url], but may I direct your attention to his comments regarding Jimmy Swaggart, and Mormons speaking in tongues (will ned to have seen it, to make sence of this). Please don't think I'm trying to assert that you don't have the Holy Ghost, only that I discovered that I'd been deceived into thinking that I was, was nearly 10 years. As someone once said to me, "Once you've tasted honey, you'll never go back to treacle again." All I ask, is that you prayerfully consider whether you have or not. Jesus assured us that those who ask, receive, but didn't definite the the duration of waiting. Perhaps you are a called to be a prophet (not claiming you are, or aren't), what if God is leading you through deception, so as to give you first hand knowledge of it? After all, Moses had to dwell in Egypt, and Midian before being usefull to God.

I understand that their are plenty of valid statements that you have made, but one erroneous statement will defile an entire arguement. this is what makes men like Katz stand apart. The ability to distinguish between his own, and Devine knowledge, and to leave the former out of the pulpit, unless being used to illustrate falibility. And brother, life is a pulpit for those who are truely called of God.

May I recommend [url="http://op.50megs.com/ditc/jacobspirit.mp3"]The Spirit of Truth vs the Spirit of Error[/url] by J. Jacob Prasch, for your consideration? I warn you, this is likely to offend you, but I ask if you are truely willing to endure prophetic reproach, in the name of pursuing truth? I believe that you are, otherwise I wouldn't have taken the time to respond to any of your statements.

Bless you brother, this will be my last post in this thread. If you have any question, objections, etc that you want to raise with me, please feel free to PM me. :-)


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2005/5/10 20:51Profile





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