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TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5388
NC, USA

 Re:

On Mars Hill, Paul made the following statement:

"Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent..." Acts 17:30 nkjv.

Again I ask: why would God command **all** men **everywhere** to repent, if He is only going to "grant" repentance to some?

If the "wrong," non-elect man repents, is God going to say "just kidding?"


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Todd

 2015/3/3 6:22Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3500
Louisiana

 Re:

"and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." (1 John 2:2).

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16).

This really is not that complicated like some are trying to make it.

Christ died for the sins of the whole world, that includes every man's sins. Whosoever believes in Him has eternal life.

Salvation is God's free gift that is given to whosoever believes in Christ. "For as many as received Him, He gave the power to become the sons of God." (John 1:12) Salvation is given to "whosever". Man is without excuse. Salvation is given unto all, and it is by the grace of God that we are saved. All that receive the free gift of God will repent of their sins.

"When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." (Acts 11:18).


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Mike

 2015/3/3 6:48Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
actaualy brother he did say that he created vesels prepared for destruction '''romans 9'22 International Standard Version
Now if God wants to demonstrate his wrath and reveal his power, can't he be extremely patient with the objects of his wrath that are made for destruction...



I would encourage you to study that wording in the original greek and compare multiple translation. Again, the fact that the ISV translators used the word "made" does not mean that they were saying anyone was created for destruction. If we follow that line of reasoning, then Paul was saying that God created the nation of Israel for the specific purpose of destroying the nation of Israel. Remember that context is critical.

We must be careful that we do not read a presupposition into scripture. It is easy to do. When we presuppose a doctrine, then all scriptures seem to, in one way or another, support that doctrine. Israel, due to her continual backsliding and rebellion, were made fit for nothing other than destruction, but that destruction did not come because of God's great grace and faithfulness to the people whom He chose to bear His name in the earth. Look at Jer. 3:14. God will still extend grace to His backsliding children, Israel. The election that is described here has nothing to do with the new covenant and the gospel.


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Travis

 2015/3/3 8:23Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 706
San Diego

 Re:


"Christ died for the sins of the whole world, that includes every man's sins. Whosoever believes in Him has eternal life."

Since the above is true in a sense, it is important to understand that it is also true "the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are on it."

Jesus' death is for one man- any man, all men, or no man. His death and resurrection are valuable to bring life to those who repent and come into covenant with Him, but are of no use to those who refuse to repent.

The death of Jesus enables God to save all men, but does not obligate Him to save any one.

Repent and live! It appears from scripture that when the bridegroom comes, no one rouses the sleeping virgins who brought no oil!


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Tom Cameron

 2015/3/3 23:59Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

hey twayeb ,,brother if you would like to give us all a lesson on the greek text regarding a chapter go for it ill definitely be in that ,,but every time iv read one that iv found most of the greek scholars who translated the different versions have done a fine job . I randomly picked the isv,but was quoting a different version that said these vessels were prepared or fitted for destruction, either way the context was god was the potter an we are the vessels made or prepared by him you cant get around that but go to greek and show us that it doesn't men that ,but ill bet by bible that it means what it says . Im not getting hung up on a word , it is the principal that is being taught in romans and else where that im seeing ,,

I dont know what your reading when you said god was creating Israel to destroy Israel ,,is that in the greek text ,im not seeing that in any of the translations iv got


brother you should take your advice about presuppositions i fell that is what your doing ,,

theses verse and others is why i came to the conclusion i have ,rather then me thinking that god predestined in the first place predestination came after i had presumptions that it is all free will of man that controlled destiny.


A no brother i think you dead wrong i dont think that all scripture at first glance seems to support presuppositions


i think it takes time to blend scriptural context in tho one big context that does not contradict ,,and that's all im trying to do is weed out what seems like a contradiction

i realist the direct context of Israel election from among the nation has nothing to do with the new covenant ,but paul has used it among personal elections like that of jacob and pharo to teach a new testament truth ,,the spiritual mean so to speak ,and he applied it to our salvation ,there is no geting around that by degrading that part of the letter to the romans to an erelevent old covenant bible study that paul was having with the saints at rome ......


eveyond seems to get hung up on the word world or all men ,forgeting the jews use hypabole all the time


for instance when john the jew says in his letter that Jesus is the propitiation not for our sins only but the whole world ,,,he is saying this is not just for the jews but for the gentiles .when god so loved the word he gave him only son ,,it is just a general way of saying it hes not saying hes giving the whole world repentance and faith look at the context Jesus was only preaching to jews at the time only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel ,,Jesus wold have wanted them to understand that god loved them so much he sent his son to them ,we know that bible also says says that god hates all those who do iniquity .

“Behold, the world is gone after him.” John 12:19 (The whole world at that time did NOT follow after him, but very large crowds in Israel did.

more hypa bole

 2015/3/4 2:52Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

luke 8…9His disciples began questioning Him as to what this parable meant. 10And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.


We see in the above verse that with held these vital truths from certaint jew not granted to them

he also said

25Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;…
Cross References
John 8:47
Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."



Jesus did not say well ,you are not my sheep due to you your not believing

this is teaching that there are the elect of god who were Jesus sheep and he know who they were an they will hear and will repent and believe because there are predestined and god will work in them bother to will and to do he will open up there hearts to heed the words of god like god did to lyder when Paul preached


Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us.
She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira,
who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to
heed the things spoken by Paul.

and the others are not jesus sheep the elect the ones whom the father for knew before the foundation of the world ,and these are not granted saving faith and repentance but are the vesels of wrath prepared for destruction


2 peter 2,17
17These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.

phil#'19
For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, 19whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. 20For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;…

the us and them the elect and the reprobate ,not repentance granted whose end is destruction blackness is reserved for them ,,the vessel of wrath prepared for destruction

 2015/3/4 3:36Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

a fuller context





Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE; 15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'…


in the end it was not granted to them and the result was no healing


 2015/3/4 4:22Profile
TrueWitness
Member



Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 522


 Re:

The nature and character of God is perfectly expressed and demonstrated in His Son, Jesus Christ.

John 3:16,17
For God SO loved the WORLD that he sent His Son so that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. FOR GOD DID NOT SEND HIS SON INTO THE WORLD TO CONDEMN THE WORLD, BUT THAT THE WORLD THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED.

God is Love and He is fair towards all. Men are damned because they do not believe and trust in Jesus and because they do not repent of their evil ways. Any teaching that suggests that God calls all to repentance but only "grants" repentance to the elect and goes out of His way to make sure that the unelect don't come to faith and repentance and then condemns them to an eternity in Hell because they didn't believe and repent makes God out to be a diabolical monster. If this is true then that would mean that Satan wants all to go to Hell and God wants most people to go to Hell and this somehow "glorifies" God.

As I understand it, God granting repentance simply means that God enables a person to repent by giving them a revelation of their sin and their need for the Savior. God does not repent for them, that is something they must decide to do. They must count the cost. But God does prick their hearts to nudge but not force them to repent and believe.

As for the interpretation of Romans 9, there is much to say about what Paul is intending to communicate. The deterministic interpretation has been around for a long time and seems to fit the text if you aren't careful in your exegesis. The link below goes into an exposition of Romans 9 far better than I am able:

http://reknew.org/2008/01/how-do-you-respond-to-romans-9/


-Daniel

 2015/3/4 11:10Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 613
Texas

 Re: One placec "ALL" means - ALL

In Romans, Paul uses the word "ALL" and no one disputes how extensive this "ALL" is. Romans 3:23 - " For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." I have never heard a Calvanist or Arminian ever suggest that this "ALL" was any less than every man who has ever lived except the Lord Jesus Christ.

With this understood, the following statement of verse 24 has its extent determined by the previous "ALL" of verse 23.
The statement is .... "And are justified freely by His grace."

The only people being refered to are the "ALL" who have sinned. Everyone who sinned has been justified is what Paul wrote. There is no other grammatical possibility.

Paul agreed with John. Christ's death was for "ALL" who sinned and fall short of the glory of God. They both understood that Christ tasted death for every man."

The only ones confused about who Christ died for are those with a systematic theology that find it difficult to simply state it as the first time reader would have understood it.


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Alan and Dina Martin

 2015/3/4 11:16Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5388
NC, USA

 Re:

Very well stated Daniel. I certainly agree.

Unfortunately you might take some heat for linking to a Greg Boyd article, but I certainly am glad you did.


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Todd

 2015/3/4 11:17Profile





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