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Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." (NKJV)

Gary, I cannot see from this or the verses around it where you would get that 'all' is an 'elect'. There is nothing there that I can see to suggest that.
In fact if some are 'elected' to salvation (and therefore repentance), why would Peter say that God desires that they come to repentance when He has already pre-determined that they will??


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Dave

 2015/3/2 5:34Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

hey Dav ,,,,,,,,,i get that idea from peter when he begins one of his letters by says to the elect according to the foreknowledge of god the father through the sanctification of the spirit unto the obedience of the sprinkling of the blood of Christ and then ,the according to peter were to the elect and the verse in question he says that why god is patient with YOU NOT willing THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH ,the context is clearly any of you who are the elect should perish ..

god desires them to come to repentance because it is through repentance and faith that god desires to save them ,,which ones ,,,quote Jesus ,,all those whom the father has given me will come

blessings to ya

 2015/3/2 6:00Profile
TrueWitness
Member



Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 522


 Re:

While Peter does address his letter to Christians (the elect), all Christians still belong to the larger group of humanity. So I believe that the "us" being referenced in that verse means all of us as human beings and not just the elect. The word "any" means each and every one (all). If he meant to reference only the elect he would NOT have just used the single word "any". He would have said "the elect" or "any of the elect". I think that what is being communicated is that God is patient with you (Christians) and if someone doubts that fact he goes on to explain that God is patient with all of humanity and doesn't want anyone to fall short of arriving at repentance. If you interpret the word "any" as only referring to the elect, then the word "all" would also be referring to all of the elect only. Now why do we need to be told that God's will is that the elect should come to repentance when He knows full well that they in fact will all come to repentance? That line of reasoning is faulty.

 2015/3/2 9:55Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5388
NC, USA

 Re:

Gary-

Do you believe God predestines some (actually most) people to hell?

Just thought I would cut to the chase.


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Todd

 2015/3/2 10:12Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

i dont think it is faulty at all the bible clearly teaches election and predestination and that god will draw all those sheep who are his to him self and that he desires them all to come to repentance the faulty line of reason is when some trys to gloss over the teaching of predestination and election ..



well Tod when i read roman and god says through paul that he has prepared vessels of wrath before hand to make is wrath known and vica versea vessels of glory ,,,yes my belief is that god has prepared like he said vessels or humans of wrath with whom he has endured with much long-suffering ,


i dont think i can do scriptural gymnastics and make that say some thing else ,the same with the 2 peter verses my fiend is doing cartwheels with, i dont think it being honest with the scripture ,,,,,but by view is that we dont really know why god elects some and predestines to heaven and hell ,i dont feel god shuts his all seeing eyes and randomly chooses some no , i dont think scripture teaches that

 2015/3/2 14:12Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5388
NC, USA

 Re:

Thanks Gary, but from a practical standpoint it doesn't seem to matter if is random or not. Either way, it stinks for the person who is not predestined to be saved.

Of course this is assuming your paradigm is correct, which I most adamantly do not believe.


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Todd

 2015/3/2 15:32Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

We know that Jesus said that no man can come to Him except the Father first draw them. We know that the conviction of the Holy Spirit must be present for repentance and salvation. In my opinion, this is a close as we can get to saying that God only grants certain men repentance. Here, partially, is why.

Quote:
Remember Paul said he has created vessels of wrath fitted and prepared for destruction ,and other are prepared for glory ...



Actually, scripture does not say that God created vessels of wrath fitted and prepared for destruction. The context of Romans 9 is in answer to question about the election of Israel. Paul is making the point that God chose whom He chose (the literal people of Israel) as His chosen people in order to bring forth the Messiah, and if anyone has objections they need to take it up with God. So, when Paul says in verse 16 that it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy, he is not speaking of salvation or of repentance, but of God's choice of Israel as His people. Again in verse 22, the same topic is being dealt with. Paul never said that God created vessels of wrath, but rather this. What if God, willing to show His wrath, ENDURED with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fit for destruction. In other words, what business is it of yours if God showed mercy to Israel over and over and over again when all their actions ever warranted was His wrath? What business do you have of questioning God about showing this mercy to Israel when He destroyed other nations for far less? What right do you have to question his election of ISRAEL. The context is critical. Paul is not teaching us anything about election where new covenant salvation is concerned. He is giving a lesson on election where old covenant Israel is concerned.

In Acts 11:18 and in Acts 5:31 we see the phrase, "granted repentance". In both cases, the phrase is in a general sense meaning that God has given the ability to repent and receive salvation by grace through faith, the gospel, to Israel and to the Gentiles.

So this leaves 2 Tim. 2:25 as the only verse where God granting repentance appears. I have found that we need to let scripture be a commentary on itself. One verse cannot stand all alone, but needs to be witnessed by and commented on by other scriptures. We have many scriptures that speak to repentance being given to all men who will decide to turn to Christ. So it would appear to me that we are reading too much into this verse if we try to use it to forward the idea that God only grants repentance to certain elect individuals.



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Travis

 2015/3/2 15:53Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

actaualy brother he did say that he created vesels prepared for destruction '''romans 9'22 International Standard Version
Now if God wants to demonstrate his wrath and reveal his power, can't he be extremely patient with the objects of his wrath that are made for destruction...

He makes his case by comparing gods dealing with israle ,rather then doing some randam bible study of the old testamant ,, he makes it a personal thing by teaching the princaple as a new covenent truth ,and obviously is expecting to offend some people in the process so he says ;;;; rom,9

18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?…

Now it has become very personal with paul antisapating some christians will blame god and say well its not right god to judge us if it is a predestend election thing going on and he goes on with his rebuke futher to say does not the potter have the power over the clay to make a vessel of honor and one for dishoner and so on ,,clearly showing gods power to creat and predestdinate is own people accoring to his own good pleasure ,as a potter does to his potery,,

then to be even more personal he said


What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.…

and paul teaches new covent electing grace showing its not some randam bible study about israle as my brother lightly aserted but a present reality in the life of the apostal paul and the gentile converts in rome ..

brothers i dont want to derail the thread any more then it is

BUT the reality of god granting repentence to some and not to others ,,has its roots in what christ said ,,

A question , did jesus allways do the will of the father ????

i hope we can all says yes to that amen ,,now if he did the will of the father then evey pray offered to the father was jesus praying in the will of god by the holy spirit ,

New International Version john 17,9
I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

Here we see jesus praying only for the elect and not for the world , and he also mentions those who are predestined to believe through the word of the apostals ,,

No desire to pray to save the rest of the world only those who the father had picked out , so the conlusuion is that if jesus prayed in the will of god ,then it must not be the will of god to save the whole world other wise jesus would have prayed for the world ..


So after medetating on or lords prayer and see the context to peters letter , it seems peter was talking about the saints coming to repentence ,and looking at pauls leter to timothey and seeing the context, is that gods wills all types of men to be saved ,slave and well as free men kings and queens and those of all rankings ,,,the biblical teaching is clearly that god doees not grant every one saving repentence ,but only those who our lord prayed for and whom the lord had in his mind who he calls the elect or chosen



 2015/3/3 2:13Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

ill grant you that bro ,that in some verse granted is used ina general way for sure ,but we shold not mince it

blessings

 2015/3/3 2:16Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 613
Texas

 Re:

Is the gift of grace given to ALL men?

In Romans chapter 5, Paul compares the extent of sin's reach to the extent of the gift of grace. Just how extensive is the gift of grace? To whom was this "gift of grace" given?

vs 15 - "But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many."

vs 18 - "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."

There are passages where some will read into the words "all" or "world" the idea of "election" and thus limit the actual word used in a way contrary to its grammatical intent. In these two verse it is very difficult to do this because no one denies that sin has reached "ALL" men.

Did Paul believe that the "gift of grace" was limited to "some" rather than all? We know that he believed sin "abounded to all men" but did he believe that grace "abounded to ALL men" as well?

The answer is NO! Paul did not believe that grace abounded to all men.

He clearly believed that it SUPERABOUNDED!


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Alan and Dina Martin

 2015/3/3 6:09Profile





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