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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Forthright Talk on the “Non-Lordship” Message

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proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE: ///Jesus said you must be born again and that unless one is born again one cannot see the kingdom of God///

Oh yes! That is found in John chapter 3, and how that is accomplished is also found.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Numbers 21 was instumental to my breakthrough


 2015/2/21 13:17Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 719
San Diego

 Re:

Since David Jeremiah's church is only 5 miles from my home, I attended services there for around 5 years. Mostly so that my wife and I could listen to the Word and do some worship. We sat in the balcony, resisted the regular plea to join, and dabbled in the men's fellowship. My wife went to a couple women's events, was unable to penetrate the cliques.

At the men's ministry, informational structure was very confining and the words that dripped from the master's mouth each week were the same as scripture. I was even a "table leader" for a time during one of the sessions but found that no one wanted to think outside the box. Even holding back in deference to building relationships was ineffective- could not find one man that wanted to pursue God in the Baptism in the Spirit.

Jeremiah lays it out, you get everything you are ever going to get from God when you go forward to accept Christ. You get salvation, the Holy Spirit, forgiveness from sins, a shiny new bible, and a full color brochure with your pledge card. They buy it all, and live out the boring denial from there on out.

One time I was at a meeting where I had an opportunity to approach the good Doctor, and I had a question for him. Suddenly a strong feeling of restraint came over me, as the Spirit apparently bid me to leave him alone. I did.

But I have heard him clearly repudiate the idea that a man could be baptised in the Spirit, hear directly from God, operate in the gifts of the Spirit. I don't go there anymore.

The money continues to roll. They are building bigger barns as we speak.

Scary how people can be led so close to the real thing and then the hand of human flesh says, "That's far enough."


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2015/2/21 13:36Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Oh yes! That is found in John chapter 3, and how that is accomplished is also found.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Numbers 21 was instumental to my breakthrough


But we cannot ignore or deny Mark 1:15 and numerous other scriptures like it which declare we must repent and believe the gospel.

It's not an either or but a both and, repentance and faith, two sides of the same coin.

It's been said that true saving faith is a repentant faith otherwise it is a spurious or false faith.


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Oracio

 2015/2/21 13:38Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Regarding David Jeremiah, I have not mentioned his name at all on this thread as being part of those who teach the "Free Grace" or hyper grace heresy. I have not heard or read anything from him to that effect. I did not state that every single DTS graduate holds to "Free Grace" teaching because I know that that is not true, but many do hold to it.

Respectfully, regarding a preacher's position on the gifts of the Spirit or the baptism in the Spirit, that is not an essential issue that has to do with salvation. And again, neither is the issue of Calvinism vs. Arminianism. But this cheap, hyper grace thing is an issue because it is the cause of deceiving and damning many souls with a false security or false assurance.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/2/21 13:45Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

As I said "none of whom I am any large fan of."

RE: ///But I have heard him clearly repudiate the idea that a man could be baptised in the Spirit,///

I agree with you sidewalk. that is a big issue.

but my question Pertained to comparison with that of John Macarthurs ministry. They would disagree with us also.

 2015/2/21 13:53Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Please, let's not discount a ministry simply because it may be cessationist, as that has nothing to do with the salvation of one's soul. Cessationists being mentioned here believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit but their idea of it differs from Pentecostalism's view on it. Cessationists believe that one is baptized with the Holy Ghost when one is born again per 1Cor.12:13, and that after that we need more fillings of the Spirit.

But again, let's not turn this thread into debating that issue as it has nothing to do with salvation. Precious souls are at stake when it comes to this cheap grace teaching. That's way more important imo.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/2/21 14:01Profile
TrueWitness
Member



Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 661


 Re:

The debate over Lordship salvation has been going on for over a decade. The position by "Free Grace" men like Zane Hodges makes salvation a simple matter of mental assent to historical and doctrinal truths. True faith will change a person's heart and result in a change in lifestyle. It is important to not put the cart before the horse here. Salvation is not belief plus works. That is Romanism. MacArthur in trying to correct the errors of "easy believism" swings the pendulum too far in the opposite direction by conflating justification with sanctification. I want to make clear that my criticism of MacArthur does not signal that I am a proponent of the "free grace" position. Both sides are extreme positions and contain error. The Bible does say that those who PRACTICE a LIFESTYLE of gross sin without remorse will not enter the kingdom of God. This does not mean we earn salvation by works but that only those with hearts that trust and love the Lord more than their own lives are saved. Doing results from our being. The Pharisees were far from God not because their works were faulty but because their love and relationship with and for God was in shambles. However I have known Christians who backslid from the Lord and after a time, when they hit rock bottom, came back to the Lord in repentance and reconciliation. They loved the Lord perhaps even more because "he who is forgiven much, loves much". I am not suggesting that people backslide of course but scripture does say that the Lord, like the Good Shepherd, will seek and draw the lost sheep back to himself. MacArthur's position allows no possibility of a backslidden Christian.

I do think that Zane Hodge's extreme mental assent salvation position is not defensible and I believe most on this forum see the error of it so I won't go into critiquing it. If you want to understand where MacArthur gets it wrong, this review of The Gospel According to Jesus sums it up:

http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=193

-Daniel

 2015/2/21 14:02Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

True or false: a truly born again person WILL submit to the lordship of Christ.

Submitting to lordship is not a prerequisite to salvation. But salvation will result in this submission. Submission is nothing more than loyalty, which is why I like this quote from The Robe, when Marcellus finally stopped kicking against the goads:

"From this day forward, I am enlisted in His service. I offer Him my fortune, my sword, and my life. And this I pledge to you on my honor as a Roman."


_________________
Todd

 2015/2/21 14:08Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
The debate over Lordship salvation has been going on for over a decade. The position by "Free Grace" men like Zane Hodges makes salvation a simple matter of mental assent to historical and doctrinal truths. True faith will change a person's heart and result in a change in lifestyle. It is important to not put the cart before the horse here. Salvation is not belief plus works. That is Romanism. MacArthur in trying to correct the errors of "easy believism" swings the pendulum too far in the opposite direction by conflating justification with sanctification. I want to make clear that my criticism of MacArthur does not signal that I am a proponent of the "free grace" position. Both sides are extreme positions and contain error. The Bible does say that those who PRACTICE a LIFESTYLE of gross sin without remorse will not enter the kingdom of God. This does not mean we earn salvation by works but that only those with hearts that trust and love the Lord more than their own lives are saved. Doing results from our being. The Pharisees were far from God not because their works were faulty but because their love and relationship with and for God was in shambles. However I have known Christians who backslid from the Lord and after a time, when they hit rock bottom, came back to the Lord in repentance and reconciliation. They loved the Lord perhaps even more because "he who is forgiven much, loves much". I am not suggesting that people backslide of course but scripture does say that the Lord, like the Good Shepherd, will seek and draw the lost sheep back to himself. MacArthur's position allows no possibility of a backslidden Christian.

I do think that Zane Hodge's extreme mental assent salvation position is not defensible and I believe most on this forum see the error of it so I won't go into critiquing it. If you want to understand where MacArthur gets it wrong, this review of The Gospel According to Jesus sums it up:

http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=193

-Daniel


I checked out that article and saw serious misrepresentation of MacArthur and serious error and denial of clear scriptures, just like "Free Gracers" are known to do. You say you don't approve of the "Free Grace" error taught by men like Hodges yet you share this article which defends Hodges and that very error. Oh well, what can I say.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/2/21 14:18Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

I understand the gospel to be the good news about the kingdom of God. This message, according to the book of Acts, is that Jesus has been enthroned as King and that all are obliged to surrender to His claims upon them. This requires repentance on the part of those in rebellion against Him. It requires faithfulness (or "faith"—the Greek pistis can mean either) in our relationship with Him. Since He is a King, He is to be obeyed. Here is a summary of the Gospel of the Kingdom from the specimens recorded in the preaching of the apostles:

From Acts, we would have to conclude that the main elements of this message were as follows:

1. Long ago, God made promises to the patriarchs and to David that a King of David’s lineage would be permanently enthroned in David’s place—one called the “Messiah,” or “Christ.” (Acts 2:16–21, 25–31; 3:18, 22–25; 4:11; 10:43; 13:27, 29, 32–35; 26:22);

2. These promises have been fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth, the Promised One, whom God publicly endorsed by working acts of power through Him before many witnesses (Acts 2:22; 3:13, 16; 10:38–39; 13:23);

3. Jesus had enemies who crucified Him, but God restored Him to life, after which He was seen by witnesses, prior to ascending to His throne at the right hand of God (Acts 2:23–24, 32–35; 3:14–15, 26; 4:10; 5:30–32; 10:39–41; 13:28–35; 17:31; 26:23);

4. Since Jesus has been enthroned, it is incumbent upon all people to acknowledge His royal prerogatives (or “lordship”), and to repent of their rebellion against Him. To those who do this—embracing Him as Lord and Messiah (King)—He will graciously grant amnesty for all past rebellion (Acts 2:36–39; 3:19–20; 4:12; 5:31; 10:43; 13:26, 34, 38–39; 17:30–31; 26:23.).

These are the elements of every substantial presentation of the gospel recorded in the ministries of Peter and Paul. It may seem strange to us in some particulars, e.g.,

1. No emphasis on the atonement (though Paul retrospectively mentions it in his summary of the gospel as preach in Corinth—1 Cor.15:3);

2. No appeal to the Law to bring about conviction of sin (the use of the law in this way was not "the Way of the Master");

3. No mention of heaven or of hell, though, in one sermon, there is passing mention that there will be a day of judgment (Acts 17:31);

4. No mention of a need to "accept Jesus into one's heart" (not a biblical phrase);

5. No altar call or sinner's prayer.


_________________
Todd

 2015/2/21 14:22Profile





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