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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Forthright Talk on the “Non-Lordship” Message

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Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Travis,

It is not an either/or situation as you depict it. You seem to be saying that if there is a submitting or a repentance then salvation is dependent upon man. However the bible clearly points out that salvation is of God, but we have to respond to it. It's a 'both'situation. As in the passage you mentioned where 'Jesus said come unto me and then take my yoke upon you', what would be the heart of someone saying, "Yes I'll come, but I'm not wearing your yoke!"?

If you were drowning in the sea and a person came looking for you and threw you a life jacket, would you say afterwards 'I was saved because I put the life jacket on'? No, you would say you were saved because that person came and saved you. However if you did not put the jacket on you would not have been saved. In the same way just because (as Paul put it) 'God commands all men everywhere to repent', does not make salvation our work.

You cannot have grace without faith. Grace is God's gift and faith is that by which we receive that gift. James tells us that true faith is evidenced by works (not works of law, but works as in appropriate action). Faith without action is useless in the same way a life jacket is no good unless you put it on.


_________________
Dave

 2015/2/20 10:52Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Quote:
Let me ask this question, when do you think the new covenant started??



That indeed is the issue at hand. The answer is found through out Scripture but I believe Hebrews 9 15-28 makes that point clear.

What was the big change that occured at that point : Christ in you, the hope of glory become available to all men whomsoever will look to the sacrifice of Jesus.

May we be growing in this Grace that has been given to us and encouraging others to do likewise.







 2015/2/20 11:47Profile









 Re: New Covenant

Yes Hebrews 9 15-28 makes that point clear.

There are so many who attempt to take teachings from the old Covenant and apply them to us now.

The new Covenant completely replaces and does away with the old.

We are saved by Christ's Life.

Rom. 5:10, "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His Life."

True Christianity is God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit truly living in and abiding in us.

 2015/2/20 12:02
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

I'd agree that some of our Lord's sayings or commands are not binding on us today, as in the case of tithing which He told the scribes and Pharisees that they should have practiced while simultaneously practicing the weightier things of God's law(Matt.23:23). But I'd say the vast majority of our Lord's teaching and commands are binding today because we see them carried over into Acts through Revelation.

When Christ said in the Sermon on the Mount that one should pluck out their eye and cut off their hand and foot if they cause them to sin, did Christ literally expect people to do that when they sinned? I don't think so, though some have actually done that kind of thing in history due to misunderstanding our Lord there, ouch. He was making the point that we need to do whatever it takes to get rid of sin in our lives; that it's not worth it to lose one's soul on account of any sin we may enjoy.

Spurgeon put it this way in his sermon titled "Turn or Burn":

"...repentance to be sure must be entire. How many will say, "Sir, I will renounce this sin and the other; but there are certain darling lusts which I must keep and hold." O sirs, In God's name let me tell you, it is not the giving up of one sin, nor fifty sins, which is true repentance; it is the solemn renunciation of every sin. If thou dost harbour one of those accursed vipers in thy heart, thy repentance is but a sham. If thou dost indulge in but one lust, and dost give up every other, that one lust, like one leak in a ship, will sink thy soul. Think it not sufficient to give up thy outward vices; fancy it not enough to cut off the more corrupt sins of thy life; it is all or none which God demands. "Repent," says he; and when he bids you repent, he means repent for all thy sins, otherwise he never can accept thy repentance as being real and genuine."

Source: http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0106.htm

Entire sermon highly recommended. Spurgeon was very balanced in his preaching of the gospel. He preached both the goodness and severity of God as all preachers of the gospel should do. Unfortunately many love and will point to Spurgeon's eloquent preaching on grace and love and will ignore his preaching on sin, righteousness, and judgment.


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Oracio

 2015/2/20 12:10Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE: ///Entire sermon highly recommended. Spurgeon was very balanced in his preaching of the gospel. He preached both the goodness and severity of God as all preachers of the gospel should. Unfortunately many love and will point to Spurgeon's eloquent preaching on grace and love and will ignore his preaching on sin, righteousness, and judgment.///

I do not believe anyone on this thread is opposed to preaching on sin, righteousness, and judgment.



 2015/2/20 12:14Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Of course I would agree that there is a vast difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Also that we are saved by Christ's life in us. What is being discussed is what that life looks like.

Tuc, I hope I am misunderstanding you, but surely you are not suggesting that we dismiss most of the words we have recorded by our Lord in the gospels as irrelevant to Christians? Jesus is God incarnate, so it is much more importance we should give heed to what at He had to say! (See Hebrews1).


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Dave

 2015/2/20 13:32Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE//What is being discussed is what that life looks like.//

I see the disussion differently.
We all can agree on what the perfect life looks like, that is Jesus. and as most in this thread have admitted they fail at living up to that life.
So I feel the discussion is what is the correct motivation to growing in that direction.




 2015/2/20 13:59Profile









 Re: Heydave

2 Tim. 3:16-17, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 2015/2/20 14:55
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Tuc,

I'm sure we all ageee on that, but you did not answer my question.

What I find odd is this resistance to the Lordship of Christ, when Christ himself is the very centre of the New Covenant. He is also the Head of the church and should have the pre eminence in all we are and do as Christians. How can He NOT be Lord of those who claim to be Christians?


Proudpapa, Read the OP again, I don't see how you get that it is about motivation from that, but maybe Oracio is best placed to answer that as it was he that set the topic.


_________________
Dave

 2015/2/20 15:31Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
I do not believe anyone on this thread is opposed to preaching on sin, righteousness, and judgment.


Respectfully, we may have a different understanding on what preaching on sin, righteousness and judgment entails. I take it to include the preaching of repentance and the lordship of Christ. So to me if someone is opposed to the preaching of repentance as a turning from sin and submission to the lordship of Christ over their lives (As God's Word defines repentance), then they are opposed to the preaching on sin, righteousness and judgment. It's what I would call the plain hard truths of God's Word.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/2/20 15:38Profile





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