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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Forthright Talk on the “Non-Lordship” Message

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Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

I thought I’d share this piece from Spurgeon as an example of my point that he preached the same message I’m referring to:

“Grace makes a great difference in a man, when it enters into him. How vain, then, are the boasts and professions of some persons, who assert themselves to be the children of God, and yet live in sin. There is no perceivable difference in their conduct; they are just what they used to be before their pretended conversion; they are not changed in their acts, even in the least degree, and yet they do most positively affirm that they are the called and living children of God, though they are entirely unchanged. Let such know that their pretensions are lies, and that falsehood is the only groundwork that they have for their hopes; for, wherever the grace of God is, it makes men to differ. A graceless man is not like a gracious man: and a gracious man is not like a graceless one. We are “new creatures in Christ Jesus.” When God looks upon us with the eye of love, in conversion and regeneration, he makes us as opposite from what we were before as light is from darkness, as even heaven itself is from hell. God changes man. He works in him a change so great, that no reformation can even so much as thoroughly imitate it; it is an entire change – a change of the will, of the being, of the desires, of the hates, of the dislikings, and of the likings. In every aspect the man becomes new when divine grace enters into his heart. And yet thou sayest of thyself, “I am converted,” and remain what thou wast! I tell thee once again to thy face, that thou sayest an empty thing; thou hast no ground for saying it. If grace permits thee to sin as thou wast wont to do, then that grace is no grace at all. That grace were not worth the having which permits a man to be, after he receives it, what he was before. No, we must ever hold and teach the great doctrine of sanctification. Where God really justifies he really sanctifies too; and where there is the remission of sin, there is also the forsaking of it. Where God hath blotted out transgression, he also removeth our love of it, and maketh us seek after holiness, and walk in the ways of the Lord.”

Excerpted from this sermon:
http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols58-60/chs3332.pdf


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Oracio

 2015/2/18 19:04Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

It seems like for some, when they hear the term Lordship Salvation it sounds to them like we’re saying the emphasis must be on surrendering or submitting to the Lordship of Christ. But we’re just saying that submitting to Christ as Lord is one important aspect of true conversion or regeneration, and that without that there is no salvation. Another important aspect is trusting in Christ’s atonement for our sins. Other aspects are a sense of unworthiness and a sense of gratitude for what God has done for us in Christ. There are more aspects that can be mentioned, and it’s all part of the same package when one gets truly converted. The problem comes when you have preachers or teachers trying to eliminate any one of those important aspects of true conversion and saying they are not necessary.

The reason for this particular controversy at hand is due to “Free Grace” proponents saying that obedience is not a necessary fruit of true conversion, that you can have a true conversion without obedience to Christ’s commands. Again, numerous passages of Scripture are completely opposed to that view. The epistle of 1 John is one clear example, and other scriptures like Hebrews 12:14 which says that without holiness no one will see the Lord.

Those who hold to the "Lordship" view of conversion would completely agree with Spurgeon’s definition and description of true repentance which proudpapa shared. I guess maybe many of us are not as eloquent as he was; therefore we deal in simple terms. We do not have the talent to be able to speak and explain things as beautifully as Spurgeon did, but we’re saying the same thing and hold to the same thing as he did regarding this whole issue.


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Oracio

 2015/2/18 20:47Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: But Colin, I think denying all of the lordship teaching would also be wrong. Jesus did give us the commission to go and make disciples who will do all that I command them.

I have no issue with the Lordship of Christ – I have no issue with making disciples but that is not a doctrine exclusive to the Lordship salvation doctrine.

Take that last few words – “disciples who will do all that I command them”

If Christ is your Lord then you will do all he commands you to do – or you could say if you love Christ you’ll keep his commandments. So Christ Lordship and love for him are intrinsic they are the same. My point is this you don’t love Christ and don’t keep his commandments then Christ is not your Lord.

You could say that a fully-fledged disciple is someone who is head over heels in love with Christ and because of that love; he willing submits and yields to the Lordship of Christ obeying everything that he says.

Now as we are aware very soon after conversion in the journey of discipleship we soon find out that we can’t do all that is commanded of us… We may have the desire to do, but the power to do is not there, as that famous quote goes: “Houston, we have a problem”

Now if we are honest and open about this “problem” – we will freely admit that bondage remains that there is an area in us that does not love Christ and as such is not under Christ Lordship because we don’t obey.

That “problem” in the scripture is called the Flesh – what is the Flesh, it is innately evil something that remains after conversion. It is not our bodies, muscle, tissue, sinew, nails and hair are not evil in and of themselves, they can do wicked things, but they can also carry the good news of the gospel to the nations. It not our spirit, our spirit is Born Again of the living giving Spirit of God our Spirit is the new man.

The Soul - the connection between the spirit and body. The soul is both spiritual and fleshly. The soul – is our mind our will and emotions, when we read the scripture we hear of the carnal mind and we are told that the mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God, but we can add the will governed by the flesh is hostile towards God or the emotions governed by the flesh is hostile. The Soul in scripture is often described as the heart, in the Old testament the word for heart is lebab meaning; Hebrew Lexicon - inner man, mind, will, heart, soul, understanding.

In the New Testament the word for heart is kardia meaning: greek lexicon - that organ in the animal body which is the centre of the circulation of the blood, and hence was regarded as the seat of physical life, denotes the centre of all physical and spiritual life, the vigour and sense of physical life, the centre and seat of spiritual life, the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours, of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence, of the will and character, of the soul so far as it is affected and stirred in a bad way or good, or of the soul as the seat of the sensibilities, affections, emotions, desires, appetites, passions, of the middle or central or inmost part of anything, even though inanimate.

The heart the seat of both physical and spiritual life, both spiritual and natural – the Flesh is heart it is the thing that is inherently evil (do I need to quote scripture) – it is there that thoughts passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes all start from. The Flesh is our self – our self is the heart – it is the heart of all the self-life.

“disciples who will do all that I command them”

Consider what Gal 5:17 says - For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The heart our heart is contrary to the Spirit so that ye cannot do the things that ye would, our heart is not under submission to the Lordship of Christ – it will never be under submission the Lordship of Christ, never it must be put to death - So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you, Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. (Col 3:5)

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me Gal 2:20. The only cure is death, it is the cross – it is were the I – the self is removed and the new man Christ becomes the heart and soul of a man; but at the same time you live – something wonderful, something so mysterious that I struggle to find the words to explain it fully other than these – the Heart has become Christ - the Flesh has become Christ.

It is there that you are fully submitted to the Lordship of Christ, it is there that you heart is filled with the fullness of love for Christ and your fellow man – it is there that you are a disciple who will do all that is command of them, but that all takes a work of the Spirit apart from conversion. If we mediate on the the life of the disciples who failed oh so many times even when they walked with Christ, then consider the radical change in them at pentecost.

That is why I disagree with the oh so weak doctrine of Lordship salvation.


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Colin Murray

 2015/2/19 4:30Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE: ///For example, brother proudpapa, respectfully I say that it seems you have not understood the position correctly since you have tried to pit Spurgeon against it, when in fact Spurgeon himself held to this same view as a reformed Baptist preacher and preached it in many of his sermons.///

I am only pointing out what was a road block to me.

I am in complete agreement with this statement :
"It cannot be that pardon of sin should be given to an impenitent sinner" - Spurgeon

I am testifying that trusting in my repentance of sin kept me out.

I am warning against puting any confidence in our ownselves including our repentance.

Spurgeon preached the most clear Gospel Messages of any one that I have ever read or heard. Did he preach repentance ? absolutly, but he did not preach it as the object of our faith.

"Does an inquirer reply, “But surely I must do something, or suffer something”? I answer—You must put nothing
with Jesus Christ, or you greatly dishonor Him! In order to secure your salvation, you must rely only upon the wounds of
Jesus Christ and nothing else! The text does not say, “His stripes help to heal us,” but, “By His stripes we are healed.”
“But we must repent,” cries another! Assuredly we must and shall, for repentance is the first sign of healing! But the
stripes of Jesus heal us—not our repentance. These stripes, when applied to the heart, work repentance in us—we hate
sin because it made Jesus suffer."
- C.H. Spurgeon, healing by the stripes of Jesushttp://www.spurgeongems.org/vols31-33/chs2000.pdf

"The saints, when they come to die, never conclude their lives by hoping in their good works. Those who have lived the most holy and useful lives invariably look to free grace in their final moments. I never stood by the bedside of a godly man who reposed any confidence whatever in his own prayers, or repentance, or religiousness. I have heard eminently holy men quoting in death the words, "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners." In fact, the nearer men come to heaven, and the more prepared they are for it, the more simply is their trust in the merit of the Lord Jesus, and the more intensely do they abhor all trust in themselves. If this be the case in our last moments, when the conflict is almost over, much more ought we to feel it to be so while we are in the thick of the fight. If a man be completely saved in this present time of warfare, how can it be except by grace. While he has to mourn over sin that dwelleth in him, while he has to confess innumerable shortcomings and transgressions, while sin is mixed with all he does, how can he believe that he is completely saved except it be by the free favour of God?" - C.H. Spurgeon
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1344


 2015/2/19 9:31Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Over the years there have been some who've come on here trying to teach and preach sinless perfection, while at the same time admitting that they themselves are not at that stage due to some supposed deficiency in themselves such as a lack of commitment or whatnot. I’d compare it to someone standing on a street corner preaching that one must be born again, going to great lengths in trying to explain what it means to be born again, while admitting that they themselves are not born again. If that is not the height of hypocrisy I don’t know what is.

I have not come on here trying to preach something I myself admit I haven’t yet experienced or am not walking in as that would indeed be hypocrisy. The issue is that our understanding of being under the Lordship of Christ does not have to do with sinless perfection.

Jesus taught his disciples to pray daily for the forgiveness of their sins in the model prayer He left for His Church. Jesus told Peter that if one is born again he/she does not need a complete washing, as in regeneration, but only a washing of the feet, meaning a washing from the daily defilement of sin that remains in the life of believers. It’s the process of sanctification and much can be said on that topic. Maybe a thread should be started on that topic, who knows.


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Oracio

 2015/2/19 11:12Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

If this is what you believe Oracio then I have no idea how you can type on a keyboard let alone see the screen. Jesus made it quite clear that if your eye sins poke it out. If your hand sins, cut it off!!

What are you talking about sinless perfection for. There is only one who is perfect, Jesus Christ. For the life of me I have no idea why we try and read ourselves into a story about how God so loved the world and sent his Son to die for it.

It is trick of the devil to make us think so highly of ourselves in relation to matters of Salvation. What is our problem, We have been invited to accept a covenant cut between the the perfect man and God. It has nothing to do with us, It is between The Son and the Father on our behalf.

If you want to bring yourself into this conversation you will only get frustrated with the duplicity and failure that resides in each and every one of us. Jesus is perfect, and its his life in you that is the hope of glory not my pitiful attempts at self sanctification and self justification.

The father relates to us in only one way and thats through his son. if any man tries any other way you will be met with failure and discouragement. We make light of his work and make much of ourselves. Put Jesus Christ as the only thing and the things of this world, the things of ourselves will grow strangely dim.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2015/2/19 11:47Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

ZekeO, you completely misunderstood my last post or did not read all of it, or did not read it carefully. I was making reference to some who have come on here trying to promote sinless perfection, which thing I completely reject as having no biblical warrant.

Also, you may not have read other previous posts which will indicate why I bring up this "sinless perfection" thing.


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Oracio

 2015/2/19 11:57Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

I was making reference to your belief that the disciples prayer is a model that we as new covenant belivers should adhere to.

Friend, you making light of sin then.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2015/2/19 12:11Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
I was making reference to your belief that the disciples prayer is a model that we as new covenant belivers should adhere to.

Friend, you making light of sin then.



So you're saying that that model prayer which is part of our Lord's Sermon on the Mount is not for today? I think it'd be hard to prove that biblically.

Yesterday I read Spurgeon's evening devotional which speaks to this issue so I'll share it here:

"It is quite certain that those whom Christ has washed in His precious blood need not make a confession of sin, as culprits or criminals, before God the Judge, for Christ has for ever taken away all their sins in a legal sense, so that they no longer stand where they can be condemned, but are once for all accepted in the Beloved; but having become children, and offending as children, ought they not every day to go before their heavenly Father and confess their sin, and acknowledge their iniquity in that character? Nature teaches that it is the duty of erring children to make a confession to their earthly father, and the grace of God in the heart teaches us that we, as Christians, owe the same duty to our heavenly father. We daily offend, and ought not to rest without daily pardon. For, supposing that my trespasses against my Father are not at once taken to Him to be washed away by the cleansing power of the Lord Jesus, what will be the consequence? If I have not sought forgiveness and been washed from these offences against my Father, I shall feel at a distance from Him; I shall doubt His love to me; I shall tremble at Him; I shall be afraid to pray to Him: I shall grow like the prodigal, who, although still a child, was yet far off from his father. But if, with a child's sorrow at offending so gracious and loving a Parent, I go to Him and tell Him all, and rest not till I realize that I am forgiven, then I shall feel a holy love to my Father, and shall go through my Christian career, not only as saved, but as one enjoying present peace in God through Jesus Christ my Lord. There is a wide distinction between confessing sin as a culprit, and confessing sin as a child. The Father's bosom is the place for penitent confessions. We have been cleansed once for all, but our feet still need to be washed from the defilement of our daily walk as children of God."

Disclaimer: I don't agree with Spurgeon's example and use of the story of the prodigal son there, as I take that parable to be teaching the truth of lost sinner's who are converted after coming to their senses. A.W. Pink wrote an excellent treatise on that parable:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=732

But again, the point Spurgeon is making is well-taken.


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Oracio

 2015/2/19 12:32Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

It's been said that Christians should keep short accounts with God, lest there be more drifting away and more of a need for greater discipline or chastisement from the Lord. Like David, we should pray continually, "Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties; 24 And see if there is any wicked way in me, And lead me in the way everlasting."-Ps.139:23-24


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Oracio

 2015/2/19 12:42Profile





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