Here is a quote from so claimed Lordship Salvationist - Charles Spurgeon

Understand, then, that the old nature of the Christian is a body; it has in it a substance or, as Calvin puts it, it is a mass of corruption. It is not simply a shred, a remnant—the cloth of the old garment, but the whole of it is there still. True, it is crushed beneath the foot of grace; it is cast out of its throne; but it is there, there in all its entireness, and in all its sad tangibility, a body of death. But why does he call it a body of death? Simply to express what an awful thing this sin is that remains in the heart.

This messed up new doctrine called Lordship Salvation have spawned a new error called “One Naturism”.

This teaching (to my best understanding) is that upon “coming to the knowledge of Christ” (whatever that might mean to some) the old sin nature is eradicated/destroyed thus leaving nothing remaining but the new nature provided by Christ which WILL automatically produce good works — or you are not “saved.”

Hence we see Oracia declaring himself the messenger of truth - declaring I am not saved. Now I may laugh at his foolishness, but this is the terrible reality that going on within the church.

Stones are being picked up and thrown, we saw not that long ago 600million Christians were viciously labeled false, while we see the disciples of Lordship salvation doctrine acting in the same way, so willing to label anyone unsaved or false. Yes a strong religious spirit is at work within this group.

So Oracia be done with this modern doctrine that romanticises the narrow path, while in reality it is the old lie and your on the broad path that all of the worlds religions take and that is works for salvation.

The narrow path is Christ - he is the way, the truth and the light and no one gets to the Father expect through him.

_________________
Colin Murray

murrclor,

_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

For the record, I have not declared anyone on this thread unsaved. The key word in my last post is the word "if".

_________________
Oracio

_________________
Oracio

Zeko

Consider what is said in the Spurgeon quote

Understand, then, that the old nature of the Christian is a body; it has in it a substance or, as Calvin puts it, it is a mass of corruption. It is not simply a shred, a remnant—the cloth of the old garment, but the whole of it is there still. True, it is crushed beneath the foot of grace; it is cast out of its throne; but it is there, there in all its entireness, and in all its sad tangibility, a body of death. But why does he call it a body of death? Simply to express what an awful thing this sin is that remains in the heart.

Zeko you would agree with me if say that there is a remnant or a shred of the old nature left after conversion,

What I would say and it is what Spurgeon is saying in the quote, is that is not simply a shred or a remnant but the whole that is there. He quotes Calvin and says "it is a mass of corruption"

Now I depart slightly from Spurgeon as he says "it is crushed beneath the foot of grace it is cast out of its throne; but it is there, there in all its entireness" While I say it can't be cast from the throne if it's there in all of it's entireness.

I would say it is crushed but not removed from it's throne, because as Spurgeon says "what awful thing this sin is that remains in the heart" I see the heart as the very seat of self, the throne room of a human being.

kardia: 2588 - the seat and center of all physical and spiritual life, "the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavors.

When your born again it's your spirit that reborn, what you inherited from Adam is gone and your reborn of that life-giving Spirit. But your heart is another matter altogether and the Holy Spirit needs to transform this area.

The carnal mind is enmity against God Rom 8:7, you could say the carnal kardia (heart) is enmity against God because it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, what does Paul say "be transformed by the renewing of your mind" Rom 12:2. We can translate that to say be transformed by the renewing of your Kardia (Heart).

Hope you are grasp were I am coming from in such a short post.

_________________
Colin Murray

_________________
Oracio

I agree that a lot has been written on this thread. Perhaps there is some misunderstanding of what is being proposed- at least as to what **I** am proposing, so I will try to summarize it succinctly.

1) Jesus **IS** Lord: "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.” Acts 2:36

2)That Jesus is Lord is surely part of the gospel that must be believed. If Jesus is Lord, an affirmation of His right to rule and be Lord and Master would make it necessary that we **make it our aim to obey Him**, or else we deny that which we profess:

"They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed." Titus 1:16

3) To me, "easy-believism" applies to someone who claims to have been born again because they raised their hand in a Sunday school class 20 years ago but have no intention of submitting to (i.e. obeying) Jesus as Lord **now**. That person is not saved, and that is the danger.

4) A person who claims be to born again and is trying, despite repeated failures, to follow Jesus, and is trying to forsake his own claims to his life, despite failures, is likely born again, and via the work of the Holy Spirit will grow more in Christ and his failures should become less frequent.

_________________
Todd

_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

murrclor,

Maybe to ask this question, to see where you at. What made us sinners, the fact that we sin(verb) or that we are sinners(noun)?

_________________
Zeke Oosthuis