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Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3414
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:

Quote:
Oraico wrote:
I also forgot to mention in my last post the concern with the idea that miracles are needful for effective evangelism. That is simply not taught in God's Word. We see many examples of the pure preaching of the Word being used to bring about the necessary conviction of sin and repentance and faith.


How is miracles not being needful NOT taught in God's word?

Here are two examples:
Read what Jesus did here...
Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about ALL GALILEE, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Matthew 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they BROUGHT TO HIM all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

//////////////

And this as well....
Matthew 10.1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

/////////////

There are more but I am work. I ask kindly, do you overlook these Scriptures when you read the God's Word?


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Lisa

 2015/1/16 14:32Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5533
NC, USA

 Re:

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

From Matthew Henry's commentary on this verse: "He laid down the doctrine as the Spirit delivered it; and left the Spirit, by his external operation in signs and miracles, and his internal influences on the hearts of men, to demonstrate the truth of it...."

For the Kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. 1 Cor. 4:20


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Todd

 2015/1/16 15:58Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

TMK, if Matthew Henry is saying that miracles are a litmus test of Spirit-anointed gospel preaching then Henry himself was a great failure, so were Whitefield, Wesley, Spurgeon, Finney, and many others who won sinners to Christ without miracles.

Lysa, I think you misunderstood my point. By no means have I denied the miracles wrought by our Lord and the Apostles and disciples and prophets as seen in God's Word.

My point was that God's Word does not teach that miracles are a must for anointed, God-honoring gospel preaching. Just as there are examples of miracles, there are also examples of preaching without miracles. Unfortunately I do not have time right now to compile a list of such references. Both the Word and history tell us that miracles are not necessary for anointed, God-honoring gospel preaching.


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Oracio

 2015/1/16 18:45Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5533
NC, USA

 Re:

I agree with you that miracles do not need to accompany gospel preaching (but it would help). But SOMETHING must accompany it other than boldness or correct theology.

A bible teacher I like said that when he was in high school in the late 60s he would preach billy graham sermons he had on LPs in speech class (you could do that then). But he never saw his classmates get saved even though he had the sermons memorized.

Then the Jesus movement started in CA and he started attending Chuck Smiths church. Although he had been a Christian for years he never rec'd the baptism of the HS but he did at one of the services.

When he got back to school and preached the billy graham sermons in speech class all of a sudden he was seeing results. His only explanation is that he was now filled with the spirit.

The same was true with the worship band he was a part of. They would play gatherings at churches etc but never saw results until after he and his band mates received the baptism of the HS. then they started seeing results from their playing and speaking.

Matthew Henry does say in the commentary of those verses that if a preacher is not seeing results in his preaching then there is a lack of power at work.


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Todd

 2015/1/16 19:32Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

TMK, I agree that there is a need for the filling of the Spirit in order for us to be anointed in our witness for Christ. That said, God sometimes chooses to bypass that need and still save some through the mere foolishness of preaching. The reason for that is because it is the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation. He has set His seal on that message and makes it effective despite the lack of commitment sometimes on the part of those who preach it. But that's not an excuse for us not to be Spirit-filled. The more Spirit-filled we are, the more anointing there is and the more results there are.


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Oracio

 2015/1/16 21:13Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Todd: I understand where you are coming from, (reference the original post) I think. In our town we block off main street one night a month in the summer and have a community festival / art walk of sorts. I have seen people come into town who shake their Bibles at people and scream that they are all going to hell. They sometimes have signs with messages that condemn people for all sorts of actions.

The thing that is notably absent from their message is that fact that God loves sinners and longs for them to come to repentance. It is as if they do not desire for any of the people to actually come to repentance, but would rather just condemn them. It is almost like they are happy that the people are lost.

I think Jesus did preach, everywhere He went. Paul was certainly a street preacher. Yet their preaching was not simply condemnation. Sure, they were very honest with people about their lost condition. That is necessary. But their endgame was to tell those people that there was a way out of their lost condition if they would repent, surrender their lives to Christ, and receive forgiveness.


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Travis

 2015/1/17 17:16Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Amen twayneb.


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Oracio

 2015/1/17 17:18Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Do the signs (miracles) follow the word to confirm it or are they publicity that acts as an attraction to the flesh?



I think both in a way. What we do know is that signs and miracles followed to confirm the word, and that they were much publicized. Many came to hear both Christ and the apostles because they had heard of the miracles being performed.

What I have noticed is that some believers seem to be overly focused on the manifestations, seemingly for their own sake. There is a signs and wonders movement afoot that has, in my opinion, gone off the deep end where manifestations of the power of God are concerned.

I guess I see things pretty simply sometimes, and to me it should look like this. If I am full of the Holy Spirit, then God should be able to use me to minister to others in supernatural ways. But the purpose of this ministry is not so that we can all focus on manifestations. It is just a natural part of being filled with the Holy Spirit of God. It is really nothing special, although to our fleshly mind it seems out of the ordinary. But the end result of all of it should be to point to Christ. If people are not maturing in the things of God, if they are not growing into the full measure of the stature of a full grown man in Christ, then what was the point anyway? If I am preaching truth, then the Holy Spirit of God should manifestly be supportive of that truth. He will confirm that what I have said is of Him. But again, the purpose of the manifestation is the edification of the body.

I am always a little bit concerned when someone spends much time talking about signs, miracles, and manifestations, but does not spend much time or energy trying to grow and mature the body of Christ.


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Travis

 2015/1/17 17:29Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3414
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:

Quote:
Oracio wrote:
Lysa, I think you misunderstood my point. By no means have I denied the miracles wrought by our Lord and the Apostles and disciples and prophets as seen in God's Word.

My point was that God's Word does not teach that miracles are a must for anointed, God-honoring gospel preaching. Just as there are examples of miracles, there are also examples of preaching without miracles. Unfortunately I do not have time right now to compile a list of such references. Both the Word and history tell us that miracles are not necessary for anointed, God-honoring gospel preaching.


I think again, as with another, we are talking about two different things! I apologize, it appeared that you didn't believe in the working of miracles for today since you seemed so dead set against them; sort of like the glass is half empty argument! I love to discuss from the glass is half full stand point!! (If you hadn’t guessed!) :)

Oracio, you are right, the Bible does not explicitly say, “Miracles “MUST” follow your preaching,” but I do believe that the Word and history does in fact teach “by example” that it should be always be included and/or expected! I would rather lay hands on the sick EXPECTING them to recover than not lay hands on them. And just because no one gets healed doesn't mean I stop praying for them either. :)

God bless you,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2015/1/18 16:36Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3414
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: twayneb

Quote:
twayneb wrote:
I am always a little bit concerned when someone spends much time talking about signs, miracles, and manifestations, but does not spend much time or energy trying to grow and mature the body of Christ.


Brother Travis,

I only talk about miracles, signs and wonders on sermonindex butI think it’s a shame that I feel that I have to defend the working of God’s miracles, of all places, on a Christian website. But I’m not discouraged, someone has to do it! :) :)

But I have some questions I’d like to ask in respect to you. Why can’t Christians talk about believing in miracles without you or others becoming “a bit concerned” about it? What is the cut off time for them to discuss it before you deem them not spending time or energy growing or maturing in Christ? Five minutes, 20 minutes, one page of a thread or six pages? I ask in all kindness, what are your stipulations? :)

Being born again is in the Bible, do people in your church talk too much about that? (Again, I’m asking in kindness...), Or is it just miracles, signs and wonders that get lumped together with not growing or maturing in Christ when people talk about it?

I was just wondering brother and thought I would do my best to ask as kindly as the type written word would allow.

God bless you,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2015/1/18 16:37Profile





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